Is it a rise?

[sluggers]

so your saying a pitch at a normal release point thrown 60mph with no spin or corkscrew will end up in the dirt

Yes. You can check out the data that poboy (who is a professor emeritus in physics from U of Illinois). Pitchers always release the ball with an upward trajectory.

POBOY:

I don't make a distinction between a fastball and a drop ball. I assume both are thrown with topspin. Among the experts following this thread, what is the distinction?

I wish this answer were simpler...

So, when a pitcher is first taught to pitch, they are taught "a fastball". Due to the position of the hand at release (fingers behind the ball and pointing down), the fastball almost always has top spin. (Occasionally, pitchers will have screwball spin.)

The pitcher will throw this pitch (the fastball) almost 100% of the time until she is 14YOA or so. (Even through most parents believe that their DDs throw a bunch of different pitches, the truth is that they are almost all fastballs until 14YOA or so.)

If a pitcher wants to throw a pitch that is noticeably different from her fastball, then the pitcher has to learn a different way (different mechanics) to throw the ball.

Referring to your excellent charts, take a look at your chart "spinrate vs. axis", you'll see the vast majority of pitches have an RPM less than a 1000, but you also have a large number of pitches with an RPM 1500 and above, and many pitches with an RPM above 2000.

From a strictly scientific point of view, all the pitches "drop" when compared to a ball with zero spin. But, you also have to agree that the flight path of a ball with 1000RPM has a significantly different flight path than a ball with 2000RPM. In order to produce 2000RPM, the pitcher uses significantly different mechanics than one throwing with 1000RPM.

It is inaccurate to say the two pitches are the same, because (1) different mechanics are used to throw the two pitches and (2) the results of using the different mechanics produce significantly differently results (as far as the batter is concerned).

So, the terminology "drop ball" and "fastball" is what was adopted by the softball community.

EASTON:

My data comes from the NASA pitching simulator, found at http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/foil2bk.html. Run it yourself.

I have talked to Thomas Benson (the guy who wrote the program). He is, in fact, a rocket scientist. I tend to trust people can land vehicles on Mars...they seem to know something about flight.

 

[cuzmail]

He is, in fact, a rocket scientist. I tend to trust people can land vehicles on Mars...they seem to know something about flight.

Nice appeal to authority fallacy. However, probably a good one.

Not saying I have the data to disagree, but 4.5' sure seems like a lot of drop over 40' of travel.


....heading back to read my latest copy of The Flat Earth Society Monthly.

 

[Gronknation]

Setting a pitching machine on 60 The ball seems like it would go at least 50 feet without a noticeable drop. I know the ball from the pitching machine has backspin on it but it cant have that much affect on the ball.

 

[pobguy]

1. My Trajectory Calculator has a 60 mph softball thrown horizontally with no spin falling 3.5 ft over 40 ft.

2. If that same spinless pitch is thrown at a slight upward angle, so that it rises 8" above the release point, it ends up falling about 0.5 ft below the release point after 40 ft.

3. I am the U. of Illinois physicist whom sluggers referred to just above (but "pobguy", not "poboy")

 

[corlay]

2. If that same spinless pitch is thrown at a slight upward angle,

This is the point that all those questioning your data arent understanding: that the direction of force at release (vector) of ALL underhand fastpitches is slightly upward leading to an initial upward trajectory of the ball, not parallel to the groud plane as all seem to think.

 

[cuzmail]

1. My Trajectory Calculator has a 60 mph softball thrown horizontally with no spin falling 3.5 ft over 40 ft.

So I'm hearing that a well thrown knuckle would drop 3.5'??????
and unpredictably
Hmmm........

On another note, I don't think it's practical to use a pitch without any spin. With that in mind, how much do you think a typical spin rate pitch would drop?

 

[Doug Romrell]

This is the point that all those questioning your data arent understanding: that the direction of force at release (vector) of ALL underhand fastpitches is slightly upward leading to an initial upward trajectory of the ball, not parallel to the groud plane as all seem to think.

Is what "all" or "most" or "many" seem to think? I'm not sure "all" is quite accurate.

 

[pobguy]

So I'm hearing that a well thrown knuckle would drop 3.5'??????
and unpredictably
Hmmm........

On another note, I don't think it's practical to use a pitch without any spin. With that in mind, how much do you think a typical spin rate pitch would drop?

In my previous post, I am ignoring all "knuckleball effects" and only talking about the effect of gravity. That was the point of the example of no spin and I think that was the point under discussion, at least the one I was responding to.

Now responding to your question about spin, let me assume 1000 rpm of spin, 60 mph, 40', horizontal release. Drop=2.2' if backspin and 4.9 ft if topspin. If instead the ball thrown at the same upward angle as before, then drop=-1' if backspin (i.e., ball actually ends up higher than release point) and 1.6' if topspin.

 

[knightsb]

pobguy, JMO, I think a release distance of 37 or 38 feet is more representative based upon how far many of these top pitchers drive from the pitchers plate.

 

[pobguy]

So I'm hearing that a well thrown knuckle would drop 3.5'??????
and unpredictably
Hmmm........

On another note, I don't think it's practical to use a pitch without any spin. With that in mind, how much do you think a typical spin rate pitch would drop?

In my previous post, I am ignoring all "knuckleball effects" and only talking about the effect of gravity. That was the point of the example of no spin and I think that was the point under discussion, at least the one I was responding to.

Now responding to your question about spin, let me assume 1000 rpm of spin, 60 mph, 40', horizontal release. Drop=2.2' if backspin and 4.9 ft if topspin. If instead the ball thrown at the same upward angle as before, then drop=-1' if backspin (i.e., ball actually ends up higher than release point) and 1.6' if topspin.

Attached is a picture of the trajectory for the 1000 rpm backspin (a "rise"), with initial upward trajectory. The ball is released from 2' above the ground. The blue curve is the actual trajectory. The red line is simply an extension of the initial direction. Note that the ball really rises and ends up above the release point. However, it never rises above the red line.