Is it a rise?

[Otto]

Thanks for the helpful responses. The pitch that Doug and Sluggers describes is the pitch I am interested in.

A batter will perceive a ball thrown with corkscrew spin as rising a little.

What is the term for the pitch Sluggers describes? Riseball? Up-pitch?

Finally, some perception questions. Do you folks think this pitch would compliment a good dropball and a very good changeup as a third 'primary' pitch. Would it be wise to take a few mph off of the drop and throw those three pitches as 3 different gears?

Doug, would you expand on how the non backspin riseball worked for your daughter? If anyone else has embraced to non backspin rise, can you share your actual success/failures?

Thank you all!

 

[pobguy]

Thanks for the helpful responses. The pitch that Doug and Sluggers describes is the pitch I am interested in.




What is the term for the pitch Sluggers describes? Riseball? Up-pitch?

In baseball it would be called a "gyroball", about which much has been written
The Gyroball. I agree with sluggers that it would have the perception of rising, relative to a fastball with topspin. The topspin fastball drops more than from gravity alone; the corkscrew gyroball drops just as much as from gravity alone, so would appear to rise relative to a topspin fastball.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Thanks for the helpful responses. The pitch that Doug and Sluggers describes is the pitch I am interested in.




What is the term for the pitch Sluggers describes? Riseball? Up-pitch?

Finally, some perception questions. Do you folks think this pitch would compliment a good dropball and a very good changeup as a third 'primary' pitch. Would it be wise to take a few mph off of the drop and throw those three pitches as 3 different gears?

Doug, would you expand on how the non backspin riseball worked for your daughter? If anyone else has embraced to non backspin rise, can you share your actual success/failures?

Thank you all!

With regards to my oldest daughter (DD), all that mattered, in most cases, was that the batter was often fooled by her low-to-high cork-skrew fastball (high-school and travelball), which people called a "riseball." She threw it HARD. Given she could throw this pitch (low-to-high), along with the low end of the zone, she would have been a much better pitcher had she worked harder on developing (1) a good change-up, and (2) a good low and inside drop ball. Her corkscrew (or bullet spin) fastball was thrown high inside or high outside. Problem was that she relied way too much on her speed and not enough on movement. I sure wish I had known then what I know now--Boardmember's IR in the classroom thread and Javasource's Drive Mechanics thread, along with the Rick Pauly and Rich Baslwick stuff.

For me, if a pitcher has a great drop that she can throw inside, a rise-curve (backspin with a slightly tilted axis) that drifts out and is thrown to the outside corner, along with a great change-up (one where the pitcher appears to be bringing the heat), are FANTASTIC pitches.

I kind of get a kick out of folks (pitchers or pitcher's parents) who proclaim they have 6 or more pitches. I believe that if a pitcher has a good dropball, a good riseball (backspin), and a good (sellable) change-up, what else does she need? That's 3 pitches. Of course, I believe that a good change-up is what seals the deal. If a pitcher already has a good drop and change-up, I think it's time to learn backspin. It shouldn't be terribly hard if the girl has good arm whip and she already has the palm-up orientation (or close to it) when her arm is around the 9:00 position coming down the back side in her arm circle. It will be darn-near impossible to learn it if she's a bowling (hello-elbow) style pitcher, in my opinion.

 

[colin]

another great riseball thread! i hope Balls has more good video to post. i am still not quite sure what BM's point was last time on a certain pitch.

looked but cannot find other thread

 

[Gronknation]

Otto, you may be a troll. But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.




There is the "physics" side of pitching. Then, there is the perceptual side of pitching.

PHYSICS

Let's assume the pitcher is standing on a platform so that her release point is 8 feet off the ground, and that she is throwing the ball at 60 MPH. She is also throwing the ball perfectly horizontal, with no upward or downward trajectory.

Over the distance of 40 feet from her release to the batter:

1) A ball with no spin (no backspin or topspin) will fall about 4.5 feet.
2) A ball thrown with corkscrew spin will also fall about 4.5 feet.
3) A ball thrown at 30 RPS back spin will fall about 2.5 feet.
4) A ball thrown with 30 RPS top spin will fall about 6.5 feet.
5) A ball with 10 RPS top spin will fall about 5 feet.

So, from a strictly physics point of view, the does does not "rise". With backspin, the ball falls less.

PERCEPTION

Of course, no one really cares about the physics. Everyone cares about whether the batter can hit the ball. The real question in softball/baseball is, "What does the batter perceive?"

Perception is different.

Batters spend most of their time hitting fastballs in practice. They are trained to hit fastballs. (And, I'm sure you know that good batters are "looking" for the fastball.)

So, a batter facing a pitcher throwing a fastball with 10RPS top spin will perceive that pitch as flat.

A batter will perceive a ball thrown with 30 RPS backspin as "rising" a lot. A batter will perceive a ball thrown with corkscrew spin as rising a little.

So your saying a pitch at a normal release point thrown 60mph with no spin or corkscrew will end up in the dirt

 

[Rocketech1]

Your third question... No. There are levels of riseballs. A riseball... as you said, is released on an upward trajectory with a speed that prevents gravity from taking it down, with a backspin. As a comparison, a backflip change is released with backspin... but the speed allows gravity to make it fall.

One important factor not mentioned is drag (air resistance) and it's effect on slowing down both the velocity and spin of the pitch throughout its flight. As soon as the ball is released from the hand it starts to slow down due to drag. I have always found it curious that those who think a riseball jumps never consider this fact the the ball is losing speed and spin by the time it travels 40 feet but somehow the ball still "rises" or "jumps" up by the time it reaches the batter?!

My other point is that from what I have observed most riseballs don't have true backspin but have spin that is more corkscrew or curveball but the ball's axis is tilted upward. Effective pitch, but not the true backspin which is the holy grail of riseballs.

 

[pobguy]

I don't know about your practices, but most of our live pitches, at least, are drop balls, not fastballs. Because that is what our pitchers like to throw these days.

I don't make a distinction between a fastball and a drop ball. I assume both are thrown with topspin. Among the experts following this thread, what is the distinction?

 

[Rocketech1]

I don't make a distinction between a fastball and a drop ball. I assume both are thrown with topspin. Among the experts following this thread, what is the distinction?

Not an expert but I agree that most newbie pitchers are taught a four seam fastball as their first pitch, which is the precursor to the drop ball. I know with my DD that the only thing she does different with her drop ball vs her fastball is that for the drop ball, she shortens her stride, slightly tilts her upper body at release, and throws it low in the strike zone. The grip and arm whip is identical for both pitches.

 

[Doug Romrell]

... from what I have observed most riseballs don't have true backspin but have spin that is more corkscrew or curveball but the ball's axis is tilted upward. Effective pitch, but not the true backspin which is the holy grail of riseballs.

I suppose pitch with a perfect backspin would be one with an axis that is horizontal to the ground, yet how many "riseball" pitches do you see with a horizontal axis?
A pitch with a perfect curveball spin would be one with an axis that is perpendicular to the ground, yet how many curveballs do you see with a perpendicular axis?
Of course, it's hard to describe axis orientation in three-dimensional space. Clips work best.

The reason I refer to a "rise-curve" is because when we are working on the "riseball" (with black stripe on the ball), what I see when I catch for them is an axis that is tilted some from horizontal. I'm going to try to film it Tuesday, but I doubt my camera is high enough quality. I need to buy one of those Sony cameras that Javasource was referring to!

 

[Easton33]

Otto, you may be a troll. But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.




There is the "physics" side of pitching. Then, there is the perceptual side of pitching.

PHYSICS

Let's assume the pitcher is standing on a platform so that her release point is 8 feet off the ground, and that she is throwing the ball at 60 MPH. She throws the ball perfectly horizontal, with no upward or downward trajectory.

Over the distance of 40 feet from her release to the batter:

1) A ball with no spin (no backspin or topspin) will fall about 4.5 feet.
2) A ball thrown with corkscrew spin will also fall about 4.5 feet.
3) A ball thrown at 30 RPS back spin will fall about 2.5 feet.
4) A ball thrown with 30 RPS top spin will fall about 6.5 feet.
5) A ball with 10 RPS top spin will fall about 5 feet.

So, from a strictly physics point of view, the ball does not "rise". With backspin, the ball falls less.

PERCEPTION

Of course, no one really cares about the physics. Everyone cares about whether the batter can hit the ball. The real question in softball/baseball is, "What does the batter perceive?"

Perception is different.

Batters spend most of their time hitting fastballs in practice. They are trained to hit fastballs. (And, I'm sure you know that good batters are "looking" for the fastball.)

So, a batter facing a pitcher throwing a fastball with 10RPS top spin will perceive that pitch as flat.

A batter will perceive a ball thrown with 30 RPS backspin as "rising" a lot. A batter will perceive a ball thrown with corkscrew spin as rising a little.

I think your numbers are off as well. You show a 60mph fast ball dropping 4 1/2' over 40 ft and that just can't be accurate. Below is a link suggesting the drop of a 60mph fastball is about 8". How are these numbers so far off? (Yours vs theirs) This particular article and illustration shows the ball with an 8" arch to overcome gravity and finish on the same plane it started on. Without the the arc, the ball would in effect be falling 8" below the plane it started on. 8" vs 4.5' is a huge difference. A pitcher would literally have to start the ball at the batters eyes to get it to fall in the strike zone. Where did you get those numbers from?

All Pitches Have an Arc Great softball pitching hints and recommendations for girl softball pitchers