Inning Restrictions in HS Softball? Yes or No

[Screwball]

I read a long thread at the Ohio Fastpitch Forum. I want to see what people think here.

I have to point out three things:
--I have not seen any NFHS movement where I live on restricting innings, so perhaps a local thing.
--Articles on so-called pitching injuries are from the 1990s, and that means, old, less acceptance of females as serious athletes, and also different pitching motions and practices than you see today. But the articles are still GOSPEL. The Dispatch article NEVER mentions the studies citied, most likely because they are embarrassingly old.


This caught my eye from the GOSPEL 1998 article: "The injury in windmill pitching is attributed to poor mechanics and occurs as the medial elbow contacts the hip just before ball release." Really?


Would you really NOT be able to play in college if you had limited innings in HS play?
Are there really overuse injuries attributable to high school? Or is it travel where the overuse occurs?

 

[starsnuffer]

Is it really a problem?

A kid is going to throw 10-50 pitches practicing for every 1 pitch they throw in a game. Do you think they're going to practice less just because some crusty old goat makes a new rule for their high school governing body?

I wonder what the statistics are comparing kids in their backyard practicing pitching vs those that get in car wrecks, bad relationships, or other social problems, and if "overuse" injuries are worse?

It's a sport, injuries happen, if it hurts too much, stop. It's a common sense problem, not a "we need more rules" problem.

-W

 

[sluggers]

There are restrictions in baseball, and somehow the game survived--and it is a heck of a lot more popular than softball.

A reasonable restriction on innings would work. How about a mandatory one day of rest between pitching appearances?

Also, it would be interesting to see how good the coaches really are. Right now, they get a big dog pitcher and cruise. The resistance comes from people afraid they can't develop a 2nd or 3rd pitcher.

I wonder what the statistics are comparing kids in their backyard practicing pitching vs those that get in car wrecks, bad relationships, or other social problems, and if "overuse" injuries are worse?

Are you suggesting that if my DD wasn't practicing pitching, she would have been doing drugs or drinking? I believe that there are a lot of alternative activities other than drinking and smoking doobies.

 

[shockcoach]

I believe that there are a lot of alternative activities other than drinking and smoking doobies.

There are?

 

[JAD]

Considering most high school teams play one game a day, maybe two with a double header, is it really an issue? I have seen TB tournament where teams can play 5 or 6 games in a day. Hopefully they have more than one pitcher, but it is still 3X more games than high school!

 

[Ken Krause]

Overuse injuries are quite real. I know a few pitchers in my area who have suffered them. Their HS AND travel coaches pitch them every day, sometimes two or three times per day in the summer, because they don't like to lose. Pitching involves a series of ballistic movements. If you do those movements over and over without sufficient time for rest between it has to take a toll.

Look at Carpal-Tunnel Syndrome. You're just talking about clicking a mouse, yet lots of people end up with injuries due to the repetitive nature of those movements. If you can get hurt from that why couldn't you get hurt from pitching, no matter how good your mechanics are?

Screwball, this is not a male v. female issue. If there was HS softball for males and they were asked to do the same things, they'd have the same issues.

In the article they said the Sherry Warner study had been "updated." Not sure where or when. But then they also mentioned a study from Rush Presbyterian hospital. Pretty sure that is from Dr. Verma, a noted specialist (and the guy I send my pitchers to if any of them have any unusual soreness). He works with the Chicago Bandits as well as the Chicago White Sox. That study is only a couple of years old, and it points out the problems from overuse.

I think the game could benefit a lot from limitations on innings or pitches or something along those lines. As has been pointed out it would force teams to develop additional pitchers rather than riding one stud, which creates opportunities for other pitchers. It might also save a few arms/shoulders, extending the careers of more top pitchers. Teams might lose a few more games -- but then maybe they'd be forced to work harder on defense, hitting, etc. making the game more fun for all.

And in case you're wonder, none of my pitching students have had to have surgery. Usually rest, and at most a cortisone shot, takes care of any problems. It's not their mechanics. It's pitching game after game after game.

 

[marriard]

Is it really a problem?
It's a sport, injuries happen, if it hurts too much, stop. It's a common sense problem, not a "we need more rules" problem.

YES it is a problem. I think it is clear just from watching the CWS that the top pitchers are being over pitched. It seemed like all the pitchers who were seniors and were stars as freshman/sophomores had recent major arm surgery or were out due to injury.

And because way too many people have no common sense or refuse to use it then yes, eventually it is going to be legislated/rules based because clearly this is not being self-regulated. You know why college coaches and travel coaches pitch their #1 every game? BECAUSE THEY CAN! They'll justify it to themselves as 'needing the win' or 'she'll rest tomorrow' or whatever.

Last CWS we saw a pitcher pitch 17 innings one day and then have her coach bring her out there AGAIN the next day (when she was clearly done). We also saw a coach keep his star pitcher in despite being up 10+ runs even though he KNEW he was going to pitch her in the next game. In the junior levels, every tournament weekend I see at least 1 team pitch the same girl in EVERY game.



Now what the limits should be or even how it would be enforced.. that is tough.

(and yes - pitchers practice a lot as well - but that is not the same as pitching in games)

 

[sluggers]

Considering most high school teams play one game a day, maybe two with a double header, is it really an issue? I have seen TB tournament where teams can play 5 or 6 games in a day. Hopefully they have more than one pitcher, but it is still 3X more games than high school!

So, your justification is that because TB coaches overuse (abuse?) their pitchers, therefore it is OK to do it in HS?

Additionally, HS games are 7 innings in HS. There is no time limit. They usually play one game a day--but, they do play three or four days in a row. Each game requires a full warm up. And, in TB, the usually situation is pitch 2 days in a row, take two or three days off.

The article says that a pitcher needs at least 24 hours to heal. So, theoretically the TB pitcher will have a couple of days or more to heal. Not so for the HS pitcher.

There is no question that overuse causes injuries. Additionally, a lot of HS pitchers, perhaps more so than TB, have terrible mechanics.

It seems like a common sense idea to me...

 

[JAD]

So, your justification is that because TB coaches overuse (abuse?) their pitchers, therefore it is OK to do it in HS?

Additionally, HS games are 7 innings in HS. There is no time limit. They usually play one game a day--but, they do play three or four days in a row. Each game requires a full warm up. And, in TB, the usually situation is pitch 2 days in a row, take two or three days off.

The article says that a pitcher needs at least 24 hours to heal. So, theoretically the TB pitcher will have a couple of days or more to heal. Not so for the HS pitcher.

There is no question that overuse causes injuries. Additionally, a lot of HS pitchers, perhaps more so than TB, have terrible mechanics.

It seems like a common sense idea to me...

My point was that regulating the number of games/pitches a pitcher can throw in TB would have greater benefit than regulating the number of pitches/innings in HS.

 

[Sparky Guy]

My point was that regulating the number of games/pitches a pitcher can throw in TB would have greater benefit than regulating the number of pitches/innings in HS.

I agree with trying to keep the innings down. A pitcher can work on spins and conditioning on non throwing days to keep her pitching sharp. She does not need to pitch every day.

Unfortunately, trying to regulate the number of innings a pitcher is thrown in a week will never happen because of two things. The first is there no central governing body for softball. If one sanctioning body put in pitching limitations teams would simply move to another. The other thing is who is going to track all the pitchers? The lack of oversight is what can lead to overuse issues.

The second thing that needs to change is the mindset that softball pitchers can go indefinitely. The people involved in baseball have followed the hard-earned lead of major league baseball with using a pitching rotation and pitchers needing some days rest between outings. Until the NCAA takes the lead and starts restricting pitcher innings the change in the mindset will never happen. I doubt we'll ever see that happen because of the shortage of stud pitchers heading to the college ranks. Coaches are happy if they can snag one dominating pitcher who can keep them in games and win the close ones. They are not about to let themselves be handcuffed by inning restrictions.

If anything the NCAA made it harder on pitchers when they shrunk the strike zone a few years back looking for more offense. The scores in the games have risen due to the rise in offensive production leading to pitchers throwing to more hitters per game.

Until the NCAA takes the lead I don't see things changing all the way down through the age levels.