"Hello elbow"

[oktwistersgold]

Okt ... did you write this in jest to get BM going again?

Look closely at Cheyene's pitching motion. Do you really see the palm toward the plate AND a snap drive straight thru and up? That isn't what I see.

You speak of finishing across the body in a negative light ... but if you watch Cheyene closely she follows through up the center-line of her body ... and only then attempts to fool you by pulling the hand back to make it look like a "happy elbow" type pull-up pitch to those not watching closely enough.

Basically ... BM's IR action is "anti happy elbow". It is a pitching motion very much like what Bill Hillhouse, Mike White, Doug Gillis, and other solid instructors teach.

If I didn't know any better ... I'd say this girl was taught a happy elbow approach, and seems to be fooling her instructors into thinking that is how she pitches.

Like any kid, if they did exactly what is taught then there far fewer headaches from dads and coaches. This is just what she has been taught thru the years and has been very good for her. I certainly do not believe there is only one way to throw. Different body types require different approaches, etc. I'm sure for every person on this forum there is a different philosophy. And there are girls that are successful on all levels using several different techniques.

1. No you do not see a palm forward because in an attempt to overthrow she is throwing her glove arm out and pulling her hip in the way. We had trouble in the past with the elbow hitting the from closing too soon or not opening enough.

2. Again when her hip is closing too soon or not opening enough she has no choice but to finish across her body because she is coming around the hip.

3. No, she has not been taught happy elbow.

4. Any attempt to keep the arm in a straight path will give more power to the pitch. If a drag car is making a 1/4 mile run then he wants to go as straight as possible with no restrictions. You surely would not want him to turn the wheel left or right at the starting line. Not sure if that is a good example but all I could think of. So the more the palm face the plate the less restriction. And we look for a 6/12 roatation.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Okt ... the point being made is that this kid is not doing what you describe. She has learned to pitch despite the faulty instruction that you describe.

You are exactly the type of person that BM is attempting to educate. You are spreading bad information ... and the example you give does not even support your bad information.

 

[oktwistersgold]

There are a couple issues I would like to address, oktwistersgold.

1. All power in sports happens across the body. A slap shot, field goal kick, goal kick, golf swing, tennis serve...etc. ad nauseum.

2. When a baseball pitcher finishes, how does he follow through? Across the body. Not straight down to throwing side. And we are just doing the same motion upside down.

3. If a girl pitches with open mechanics, it is impossible to finish the way you are teaching. So, if you are teaching closed mechanics, there is part of the problem.

4. If you are teaching girls that finishing in that manner adds extra "oomph", then you are teaching them to muscle the ball, which will eventually result in major injury.

Also, if you slow down the video that you posted, you will see that your student does, in fact, finish more across the body. Then she forces her arm back up and over.

Totally disagree, you slap thru the puck not across it, you drive thru a pitch not across it. In a hit you have very strong hip rotation and the bat will carry you around after contact, but you would intentionally pull across your body. But I'm not sure of many coaches that teach to swing around your body. If you are taking an outside pitch to the opposite field you drive away from you body not across. Golf you do not drive across the body. You want the face of the club perpendicular to the ball. If you are coming across an object the possibility of hitting it dead on straight is reduced to perfect timing.

You can say her arm does come across somewhat, but to say "more across the body" would not be accurate.

2. You can not compare a baseball pitch to a softball pitch, the mechanics are totally different. Baseball pitch is thrown in a downward motion, you have gravity and momentum pulling you thru the pitch.

 

[starsnuffer]

This is where I first heard the term. About 2:34.

[video=facebook;682411664506]http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=682411664506[/video]

However, she does not practice what she teaches. See the next post (silly 1 video per post limit)

 

[starsnuffer]

Great pitcher, who learned to pitch in spite of her instruction. . . . however, teaches what she was instructed rather then what she DOES. This is ABSOLUTELY TYPICAL and happens all the time, but it does not make it a good idea.

-W

 

[oktwistersgold]

Okt ... the point being made is that this kid is not doing what you describe. She has learned to pitch despite the faulty instruction that you describe.

You are exactly the type of person that BM is attempting to educate. You are spreading bad information ... and the example you give does not even support your bad information.

OK, let's hear your expert opinion? You are saying that kids are being taught one way that does not agree with your way and some how they manage to disregard all they have learned and start to throw at a high level all on their own.

 

[crystlemc]

Totally disagree, you slap thru the puck not across it, you drive thru a pitch not across it. In a hit you have very strong hip rotation and the bat will carry you around after contact, but you would intentionally pull across your body. But I'm not sure of many coaches that teach to swing around your body. If you are taking an outside pitch to the opposite field you drive away from you body not across. Golf you do not drive across the body. You want the face of the club perpendicular to the ball. If you are coming across an object the possibility of hitting it dead on straight is reduced to perfect timing.

You can say her arm does come across somewhat, but to say "more across the body" would not be accurate.

2. You can not compare a baseball pitch to a softball pitch, the mechanics are totally different. Baseball pitch is thrown in a downward motion, you have gravity and momentum pulling you thru the pitch.

You can disagree all you like, but the simple fact is that every one of the sports movements you described, FINISH across the body. The movement is done on a diagonal plane, not straight up and down or back and forth. The girl in your example does not finish the way you say you teach. Just as Jennie Finch doesn't finish the way she teaches.

And yes, a truly gifted pitcher will "find" the proper mechanics all on her own, in spite of your teachings. They do it naturally. They will naturally find the mechanics that are being taught by the best instructors/pitchers in the world.

For clarification, go to fastpitch.tv and watch episodes 196-199. In the event that you don't know, this guy Hillhouse is considered one of, if not THE best fastpitch pitcher/instructor in the world.

 

[BoardMember]

OK, let's hear your expert opinion? You are saying that kids are being taught one way that does not agree with your way and some how they manage to disregard all they have learned and start to throw at a high level all on their own.

Exactly Twister........Exactly.........

Feel free to read these threads so you can catch up with the conversations surrounding this subject. Then an informed conversation on the subject will be more beneficial.......

Internal Rotation

I/R in the classroom

 

[howellhandmade]

It's been a while since I did this spiel. When my daughter started pitching, her instructor said EXACTLY the same thing okc says. Push through, hand behind the ball, snap your wrist (a strong wrist snap can add 5mph to the pitch!) and point your elbow at the catcher. I spent several months sitting on the bucket, telling her these things like a parrot. Hand behind the ball! Follow through down the line! Braaaak!

At one point I decided to take some video. Which is when I discovered, to my horror, that her hand was not behind the ball at all on the downswing, but inside the ball with the ball pointing at third. Her instructor said that you had to get your hand behind the ball, how else could you get any power? And she wasn't following through straight down the power line, but across her body! The problems that would cause!

So I went straight to the internet, determined to find video of the top pitchers so I could show my daughter that Jenny Finch, Cat Osterman, Sarah Pauley, and all the others did exactly what the instructor said. What I found was the opposite. ALL of the great pitchers have their hands inside the ball, which points at third (RHP), when the arm is pointing at second. The elbow leads, then the upper arm slows, the forearm rotates and accelerates (internal rotation), then the hand whips last. NO high level pitcher has her hand "behind the ball" except for the tiniest sliver of a second, it is rotating with the forearm VERY rapidly through the whip/release zone. Follow-through is more individual, but nobody truly throws hard with a tight elbow, not for long anyway. The energy of the rotation/whip is usually released in a relaxed way as the hand continues to rotate and crosses over the body, then style takes over again.

This is what I found, when I wanted and expected to find the opposite. I've studied all the slow motion video I could find as though it were the Torah, and I challenge anyone who teaches "behind the ball" or "hello elbow" to find one single video of an elite pitcher (high level college, national team, 60+ mph) who actually does it. You won't. I know it's no use arguing because I've gone around the same tree enough times with the pitching coaches in the area. So many instructors believe so strongly in something that is completely unsupported by video evidence of top pitchers that I have to wonder if it's some kind of psychological experiment.

The last refuge in this argument is, "Well, everybody does something different, this is what *I* teach." Not in this instance. Yes everybody is built differently, some leap more or less, some pitch more open and some more closed, some are balanced on their plant foot and some lurch off to the side, some double pump and some don't, some swim the glove and some don't, some throw both arms back, and so on. But everybody who competes at the top level uses what here is called internal rotation. If there was another way to get the required velocity and spin, someone would be doing it, and there would be video.

I suppose it's natural for people to keep believing what they believe, and to see what they want to see. When I watch Jenny Finch I see the internal rotation first. I'm not fooled by her pulling her elbow up at the last second, and I wish the hello elbow folks would stop running up to my daughter and telling her to point her elbow at the catcher "like Jenny Finch."

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Howell ... nice post. Regarding an example of a high-end happy elbow pitcher ... from memory, and I don't have any video handy to confirm this, ... but was last year's senior from Florida a happy-elbow type pitcher?