Critique / Help Series of Swings

[redhotcoach]

That's her (different GIF though). The gif is also pausing for me (might be my machine) so not getting the full effect of what I was describing....

yeah I paused and slowed them some time ago, don't remember who or why. I have been deleting gifs from my library and must have zapped the original.

 

[RichK]

The difference between MTS, Teacherman, Marcus, redhotcoach, and other posters here, and those of us who are more conventional who do not come here, but send me private messages telling me to stay away, is this! We do not believe in committing the bat barrel early.

Not sure the conventional "we" vs. radical "you" angle here is doing what you think, Steve, I feel like I'm at the scouting table in Moneyball and you are telling us the hitters you like have better looking boyfriends : >

BUT...I do appreciate that Steve is saying that his swing model IS FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT than what he says others are advocating.

That's refreshing.

I am much interested in a debate that is about: I believe the swing should be this vs. you believe the swing should be that. Described in technical terms, yes, but not bogged down in the science.

And let people choose what makes and feels the most sense to them.

I think Steve has set up a clear distinction here, thanks.

 

[RayR]

Crankermo,

I have a student (not as polished as Brooke) that starts the swing the same way with the back elbow but is able to control it enough to make a lot of contact where she leads her team in hitting.....and she finishes the same way as Brooke in this clip where the front elbow never extends.....

When you learn (IMO) to turn the barrel rearward without degrading the triangle the hands can stay in tighter as the barrel arcs around and extension (even longer hitting zone) is easier achieved....

 

[RayR]

yeah I paused and slowed them some time ago, don't remember who or why. I have been deleting gifs from my library and must have zapped the original.

No pause

 

[RayR]

Didn't we do that for about 15 pages? I thought we did a pretty good job of keeping the science and anatomy out of it. I am not sure how else I can describe my thoughts on this.....I agree that Steve Huff and myself are about as far apart as you can be on a topic and I sleep fine...

Not sure the conventional "we" vs. radical "you" angle here is doing what you think, Steve, I feel like I'm at the scouting table in Moneyball and you are telling us the hitters you like have better looking boyfriends : >

BUT...I do appreciate that Steve is saying that his swing model IS FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT than what he says others are advocating.

That's refreshing.

I am much interested in a debate that is about: I believe the swing should be this vs. you believe the swing should be that. Described in technical terms, yes, but not bogged down in the science.

And let people choose what makes and feels the most sense to them.

I think Steve has set up a clear distinction here, thanks.

 

[RichK]

MTS--yep you did keep it focused on hitting. Was mixing thoughts/complaints a bit..sorry : > Anyway, as I said, I appreciate that there's not a lot of confusion between the two approaches at this point, simply two different ways of doing things.

 

[RayR]

The difference between MTS, Teacherman, Marcus, redhotcoach, and other posters here, and those of us who are more conventional who do not come here, but send me private messages telling me to stay away, is this! We do not believe in committing the bat barrel early.

I am not sure what you are talking about here? Do you think that we (the above mentioned) tell our hitters to launch the barrel before the pitch is released and hope they guessed right? Once the pitch is released the hitter makes a decision on location and speed....they learn to launch the barrel rearward and upon first movement can alter the barrel's plane before it comes around if they have to (it's called making an adjustment). And if they learn how to create resistance in their rear hip and rear leg - once the barrel is launched the lower body will lead the swing....giving the hitter even more time to make an adjustment...

It feels like all you have to do is guide the barrel to contact....

 

[Perfect Circle]

MTS--yep you did keep it focused on hitting. Was mixing thoughts/complaints a bit..sorry : > Anyway, as I said, I appreciate that there's not a lot of confusion between the two approaches at this point, simply two different ways of doing things.

At least two I'd hope... Wouldn't one be more or less effective considering size, and body type. Or even work ethic.

 

[00fpdaddy]

Crankermo's dd gif was indoors and she was wearing black. Different angle too. Sideview. Smooth, powerful, viscous bat speed. Maybe a year ago or more.

 

[drc9805]

I am going to respond to you because you posted the videos I posted and asked about my interpretation. First, the bat can't launch without wrist or as he said hand action. The question is when? My premise is that once the bat head is launched, you are committing the bat barrel to a specific spot which can not be adjusted as easily as an neutral position, barrel behind the hands, wrists cocked. So the barrel is neutral, even though the tip of the bat is moving around the shoulders. When someone has a deep "bat-wrap", that requires moving the barrel further, the bat tip further, to get behind the hands. That is not launch because the barrel pulls in line behind the hands, and the swing can be stopped without any flop toward the zone. How often do you see checked swings? What is a checked swing? You guessed wrong, and the barrel is committed. So in these videos it shows the barrel not coming around beyond the hands too early, which in their opinion, and my opinion, would commit the bat barrel to the assumed position of the pitch. That is our big difference. So Coach Carrol video does it exactly the same as the Barry Bonds still photos, but that was judged to be wrong. The hand position is high because it is just the simple stacked elbow hand position for connection at the hip. They, we, I release the bat head near, not always exactly, but near that connection position because the barrel pulling around the shoulder, as in the Posey video and others, does have some slight outward momentum. The bigger the bat-wrap, the bigger the uncontrolled momentum potentially. knightsb's DD does not have a real problem with this. And her bat-wrap looks exaggerated by shoulder coil. When she strides, it becomes a little more neutral and the bat barrel follows her shoulders around to finish the connection phase. However, that pendulum effect is not bad as it gets the bat started moving, and is still controlled.

I do not believe in hand extension toward the ball. McCutchen uses a little hand extension to bet his connection started. That is not an issue. But hand, or bat knob extension does nothing but break down power in my opinion. Some people ignore the fact that a swing as we teach it is not just wrists. The hip rotation, the thrust of the forearms from the launch through hip connection and into extension, and the wrist snap imparts power. Take a bat and hold it straight out in front of you in the stance. Have someone push on it. Even if swinging, it is a weak position. Now finish connection at the hip, bring the bat into the hitting position, as we teach it, back elbow just in front of the hips, and have someone push on the bat. Which is a stronger position to transfer kinetic energy? Bat head speed and a strong transfer position makes the swing.

As far as hitting out in front too far, I don't agree that it adds power. There are university research papers including a professor who specializes in kinetic energy of baseball and softball, who says the ultimate wrist break at contact to maximize power is about 12-15 degrees. In other words, if the bat was sticking straight out from the side of the hip, that is a neutral, no load, position for the wrists. The wrists continue to snap to 12-15 degrees, and after that point, the start to dissipate energy. The power band for that energy is probably really more like 10-25 degrees or so where it is sufficiently maximized with little drop off. At 45 degree wrist break, the power tapers off. Here are two examples of those studies.

What(and where) is the Sweet Spot of a Baseball/Softball Bat?

http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1550&context=oa_dissertations

And no, we do not like the triangle to be broken. There are ideals, and that ideal is 90 degrees approx. That triangle tilts, it does not break or disappear, to create the angle of the approach to the ball; front forearm and the bat in a straight line.

The difference between MTS, Teacherman, Marcus, redhotcoach, and other posters here, and those of us who are more conventional who do not come here, but send me private messages telling me to stay away, is this! We do not believe in committing the bat barrel early. It may not be relevant in 12U, 14U, even some 16U competition, but at 18U and in college ball, or international ISF play, we disagree. These levels have moving pitches. It is that simple. And as I said before, I had one California recruit who did this, and had a long somewhat sweeping swing, and hit .260. She hit 16 doubles too! We were amazed! I don't expect that from most who release the bat head early playing at a high level. We considered her the exception. That is the major difference. In our view, launching the bat head away from the shoulder once rotation starts, breaking that connection to the shoulder, of which I saw only three .gifs here which really do it, MTS's student in post #6, Derek Jeter's .gif (though I don't know his normal swing to judge), and the Larsen girl from Alabama have a tendency to do this. Jessica Mendoza comes as close as possible to exemplifying what WE teach in the most simple form, as opposed to the Teacherman method.

View attachment 3151View attachment 3152

PS: Photos from angles, and different angles, and pitch location, or bad swings such as over-rotating on a bad pitch create visual differences and impressions that are not legitimate for comparison. If you watch a batter from a 45 degree angle to the front, and or above, the bat path behind the batter will appear different because the swing is shortened on outside pitches. In other words, the distance to the ball from the launch position. If you are going to compare swings or batters, you should compare them from the same angle, not 25 degrees or 45 degrees difference. I only answered this post because it was relevant to do so. I am not going to get drug back in, into a debate.

Thanks! I just wanted to be sure you weren't thinking MTS was saying to throw the arms back towards the catcher or something like that. To me and this is where I'm probably wrong but it seems like the same swing you all talk about as far as the upper half goes...with the exception of the bottom and top hand torque applied at the beginning especially from where the back elbow meets/connects with the hip.

I know for a fact that something as simple as this will produce a swing that produces very good results. It may not get you to the pros but it works. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible.

1) Good athletic stance with hands placed about the armpit and just above shoulder high
2) Load - weight shift rearward 80/20 (no mention of coil at all)
3) Short Stride - hands may stretch or walk away a couple inches but no emphasis put on it...just don't bar the arm
4) Trigger the knee - no mention of hips
5) Throw the barrel, let it go, dump on the ball, etc. All with a nice fluid motion to contact and bang...the ball will fly!