Critique / Help Series of Swings

[MountieSB]

MTS,

I'm so glad you pointed out the back elbow. I've said it several times on her but here it goes again. I went to a Don Slaught RVP clinic several years ago when Brooke and I first started our journey, one of his biggest ques was that the rear elbow initiates the swing so what did I do? I told Brooke that and bingo welcome to severe bat drag.

It didn't make any sense to me when he said it because I never swung like that when I played and frankly I hadn't ever dissected video of elite hitters at that either. I swung and swung and I finally came to the realization that it was a horrible que and scrapped it. None the less it really aggravated me that we had wasted time on it. From that point on I never used anything with Brooke unless I could feel and agree with what was said. Bad information is extremely dangerful to a kid and their journey.

I take this journey very seriously because I've been at the starting point and realize how hard and time consuming it is. Brooke has reached the point where she has D1 offers and I truly wish every dad and DD the same. I do owe RD an apology for being a jerk to him, he just trying to help others and I overreacted, for that I apologize.

Knights,

Your DD has made tremendous progress. Tell her gd job and keep working hard.

I feel your pain, Crankermo. This is why I scrapped the "skipping the rock" drill (heard it from Candrea at a clinic). We start skipping the rock at batting practice with a ball in our hand as we were shown, getting the forearm parallel to the ground, and all of a sudden all my girls start bending over sideways and leading the swing with their elbow to hit! Doh!

I've been burned before with "squish the bug" and "swing down" (anybody ever buy a Swing Right? We bought two. Double doh!), so I should have known better than to do the drill before trying it out. Live and learn.

 

[redhotcoach]

This is the post that stuck out the most to me in the debate. The coach in the video is saying the hitter is intentionally using his hands to apply torque to the handle of the bat to launch the barrel. I may be wrong but this seems like what MTS is referring to when he speaks of launching the bat rearward to gain the most bat speed possible from the very start. Not extending the arms rearward or anything that would break the triangle. I'm not sure if this is what Steve Huff thought or not because I wasn't able to read any of this while the debate was taking place but I wonder if maybe it was.

It is DRC. That is one thing I had brought up to Steve...I had posted Coach Bucher's "turn the barrel" video for knight. Steve discredited it...which got me a bit fired up because I had said I would stop discrediting his posts before he left a year ago. Then later posted this video which is another of Buchers...."how to stop bat drag?---turn the barrel"

 

[RichK]

MTS,

I'm so glad you pointed out the back elbow. I've said it several times on her but here it goes again. I went to a Don Slaught RVP clinic several years ago when Brooke and I first started our journey, one of his biggest ques was that the rear elbow initiates the swing so what did I do? I told Brooke that and bingo welcome to severe bat drag.

It didn't make any sense to me when he said it because I never swung like that when I played and frankly I hadn't ever dissected video of elite hitters at that either. I swung and swung and I finally came to the realization that it was a horrible que and scrapped it. None the less it really aggravated me that we had wasted time on it. From that point on I never used anything with Brooke unless I could feel and agree with what was said. Bad information is extremely dangerful to a kid and their journey.

I take this journey very seriously because I've been at the starting point and realize how hard and time consuming it is. Brooke has reached the point where she has D1 offers and I truly wish every dad and DD the same. I do owe RD an apology for being a jerk to him, he just trying to help others and I overreacted, for that I apologize.

Knights,

Your DD has made tremendous progress. Tell her gd job and keep working hard.

Crankermo, glad to see you posting on this thread, was just thinking of you : >. The latest videos of knightsb's DD remind me of the one gif of your DD swinging off the tee, the one TM referenced a lot a while ago. I can't find it, could you post it? (if you know which one I'm referencing...maybe rdbass can find it...)

I really thought of that GIF when I saw this video of knightsb DD:

O Hitting 02/02/2013 - YouTube

Because as much progress as knightsb DD is making, she's not getting that "full-engine" whip that Crankermo DD achieves (not a criticism, but a goal). I'm talking about the deep tee drills...watch her engine just sort of "stall" a bit through contact vs. Crankermo DD who just blows through contact.

I think, KnightSB, a great next step for your DD would be to show the GIF of Crankermo's DD vs. your own and see the slight difference in how much whip they achieve. I hope that makes sense...it was just something that stuck out for me...

Great thread, congrats knightsSB to you and your daughter.

 

[Steve Huff]

This is the post that stuck out the most to me in the debate. The coach in the video is saying the hitter is intentionally using his hands to apply torque to the handle of the bat to launch the barrel. I may be wrong but this seems like what MTS is referring to when he speaks of launching the bat rearward to gain the most bat speed possible from the very start. Not extending the arms rearward or anything that would break the triangle. I'm not sure if this is what Steve Huff thought or not because I wasn't able to read any of this while the debate was taking place but I wonder if maybe it was.

I am going to respond to you because you posted the videos I posted and asked about my interpretation. First, the bat can't launch without wrist or as he said hand action. The question is when? My premise is that once the bat head is launched, you are committing the bat barrel to a specific spot which can not be adjusted as easily as an neutral barrel position, barrel behind the hands, wrists cocked. So the barrel is fairly neutral, even though the tip of the bat is moving around the shoulders. When someone has a deep "bat-wrap", that requires moving the barrel further, the bat tip further, to get behind the hands. That is not launch because the barrel pulls in line behind the hands, bat almost directly pointed backward, and the swing can be stopped without any barrel flop toward the zone. How often do you see checked swings? What is a checked swing? You guessed wrong, and the barrel is committed. So in these videos, asked about above, it shows the barrel not coming around beyond the hands too early, which in their opinion is wrong, and my opinion keeps from committing the bat barrel to the assumed position of the pitch too early. That is our big difference. So Coach Carrol video does it exactly the same as the Barry Bonds still photos, but that was judged to be wrong. The hand position is high because it is just the simple stacked elbow hand position for connection at the hip (demo). They, we, I, release the bat head near, not always exactly, but near that connection at the hip because the barrel pulling around the shoulder, as in the Posey video and others, does have some slight outward, or pendulum momentum. The bigger the bat-wrap, the bigger the uncontrolled momentum potentially. Bat-wrap usually becomes a problem hitting speed inside or promoting sweeping. knightsb's DD does not have a real problem with this. And her bat-wrap looks exaggerated because of her shoulder coil. When she strides, it becomes a little more neutral and the bat barrel follows her shoulders around to finish the connection phase. However, that pendulum effect is not bad, if minor, as it gets the bat started moving, but is still controlled.

I do not believe in hand extension toward the ball as in Linear hitting, pushing the knob. McCutchen uses a little hand extension to get his connection started. That is not an issue. But hand, or bat knob extension does nothing but break down power in my opinion. Some people ignore the fact that a swing as we teach it is not just wrists. The hip rotation, the thrust of the forearms from the launch through hip connection and into extension, and the wrist snap imparts power. Take a bat and hold it straight out in front of you in the stance. Have someone push on it. Even if swinging, it is a weak position. Now finish connection at the hip, bring the bat into the hitting position, as we teach it, back elbow just in front of the hips, and have someone push on the bat. Which is a stronger position to transfer kinetic energy? Bat head speed and a strong transfer position makes the swing.

As far as hitting out in front too far, I don't agree that it adds power. There are university research papers including a professor who specializes in kinetic energy of baseball and softball, who says the ultimate wrist break at contact to maximize power is about 12-15 degrees. In other words, if the bat was sticking straight out from the side of the hip, that is a neutral, no load, position for the wrists. The wrists continue to snap to 12-15 degrees in front, and after that point, they start to impart less energy. The power band for that energy is probably really more like 10-25 degrees or so where it is sufficiently maximized with little drop off. At 45 degree wrist break, the power tapers off. Here are two examples of those studies:

What(and where) is the Sweet Spot of a Baseball/Softball Bat?

http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1550&context=oa_dissertations

And no, we do not like the triangle to be broken. There are ideals, and that ideal is 90 degrees approx. That triangle tilts, it does not break or disappear, creating the angle of the barrel's path or approach to the ball; front forearm and the bat in a straight line.

The difference between MTS, Teacherman, Marcus, redhotcoach, and other posters here, and those of us who are more conventional who do not come here, but send me private messages telling me to stay away, is this! We do not believe in committing the bat barrel early. It may not be relevant in 12U, 14U, even some 16U competition or HS, but at 18U and in college ball, or international ISF play, we disagree. These levels have moving pitches. It is that simple. And as I said before, I had one California recruit who did this, and had a long somewhat sweeping swing from starting her bat head early, and hit .260. She hit 16 doubles too! We were amazed! We considered her the exception. I don't expect that from most who release the bat head early playing at a high level. I watched 500-700 VHS tapes per year of prospective student-athletes. There were obvious problems we watched for. That is the major difference. In our view, launching the bat head away from the shoulder, back toward the catcher, once rotation starts, breaking that connection to the shoulder. I saw only three .gifs I can remember here which really do it, MTS's student in post #6, Derek Jeter's .gif (though I don't know his normal swing to judge), and the Larsen girl from Alabama have a tendency to do this. Jessica Mendoza comes as close as possible to exemplifying what WE teach in the most simple form, as opposed to the Teacherman method.



PS: Photos from angles, and different angles, and pitch location, or bad swings such as over-rotating on a bad pitch create visual differences and impressions that are not legitimate for comparison. If you watch a batter from a 45 degree angle to the front, and or above, the bat path behind the batter will appear different because the swing is shortened on outside pitches. In other words, the distance to the ball from the launch position. If you are going to compare swings or batters, you should compare them from the same angle, not 25 degrees or 45 degrees difference. I only answered this post because it was relevant to do so. I am not going to get drug back in, into a debate.

 

[justwannaplay]

dd hitting in cage off live pitching

 

[redhotcoach]

had 2, I think I was suggesting stretch to someone else.

 

[knightsb]

had 2, I think I was suggesting stretch to someone else.

Is that crankermo's DD?

 

[RichK]

There's one indoors of Crankermo DD I just love, she's wearing white if I recall...anyway, tks RHC. I'm sure it will turn up.

 

[knightsb]

She makes great contact. Great timing.

 

[RichK]

That's her (different GIF though). The gif is also pausing for me (might be my machine) so not getting the full effect of what I was describing....