Change up advice

[nanotech14]

I know what I'm about say is for Baseball, but have any of you heard of Perry Husband and his effective velocity? It has a lot do with pitch location and speed and the perception of the pitch to the batter. Not trying to endorse it but it is interesting.

 

[JAD]

I am a firm believer that most players, at least at the 10U, 12U and 14U levels (all my DD has played so far), have a 6-8MPH 'sweet spot' for hitting. Any pitches faster or slower than the 'sweet spot' will give batters trouble. We are seeing a good demonstration of that right now in high school feeder ball. My DD, who is used to hitting against 52-60MPH pitching at 14U ASA A, is seeing 40-45MPH fastball from some of the feeder ball pitchers, and their change ups are 35MPH! It seems like it should be easy for my DD to step in and rip balls to the fence, but she has struggles so far this season.

That said, my DD has always had a hard time throwing a backspin change up, so we switched her to a 'sidehand' change up. It took out a lot of the wrist flick and timing issues and still gives her 8-10MPH drop in speed from her fastball.

 

[Greenmonsters]

An inside change to a decent hitter is that screaming line drive that bounces six inches inside the left field foul line for an extra base hit. I've honeslty never heard of targeting a change to the inside half of the plate. It takes away the advantage of what the pitch is designed to do, which is get the hitter ahead of the ball. Slightly ahead of an outside pitch = swing and miss or off the end of the bat. Out in front of an inside pitch = dead pull down the line.

Me neither, so let me clarify - my plate doesn't have a middle or inside/outside halves, it only has corners and there's no reason to throw a pitch over any part of the plate unless the hitters AND umpire force you to. IME, the change ups that get smoked are the ones left out over the plate. The majority of the time with less than 2 strikes I see batters simply taking the change up if they don't get badly fooled and swing and miss. Ideal location for an inside change is 1-2 balls off the corner - see a lot of those smoked, they come in looking fat to the hitter, but not many are able to keep that ball fair particularly if they're up on the plate trying to cover the outside corner. And the ones that do keep it fair, well they probably can hit your other pitches too. I disagree on the objective - IMO its to 1) disrupt the hitters' timing (whether that's a swing and miss, weak hit off the end of the bat, or pulled hard foul) on that AND subsequent pitches ; 2) make the other pitches seem faster; and 3) expand the velocity range that the hitter has to cover. IMO, the worst time/location to throw a change is on the outside corner with 2 strikes - that's a gift to any hitter. Mix up speeds and locations in an unpredictable manner and you'll do a good job keeping hitters from frequently squaring the ball up.

 

[FrozenRope]

Me neither, so let me clarify - my plate doesn't have a middle or inside/outside halves, it only has corners and there's no reason to throw a pitch over any part of the plate unless the hitters AND umpire force you to. IME, the change ups that get smoked are the ones left out over the plate. The majority of the time with less than 2 strikes I see batters simply taking the change up if they don't get badly fooled and swing and miss. Ideal location for an inside change is 1-2 balls off the corner - see a lot of those smoked, they come in looking fat to the hitter, but not many are able to keep that ball fair particularly if they're up on the plate trying to cover the outside corner. And the ones that do keep it fair, well they probably can hit your other pitches too. I disagree on the objective - IMO its to 1) disrupt the hitters' timing (whether that's a swing and miss, weak hit off the end of the bat, or pulled hard foul) on that AND subsequent pitches ; 2) make the other pitches seem faster; and 3) expand the velocity range that the hitter has to cover. IMO, the worst time/location to throw a change is on the outside corner with 2 strikes - that's a gift to any hitter. Mix up speeds and locations in an unpredictable manner and you'll do a good job keeping hitters from frequently squaring the ball up.

To speak of a plate ONLY having corners for any level of ball less than 16U or 18U is arrogance. The majority of pitchers just aren't that good at that age, especially at 12U, which is the topic of this thread. OK... Symantics. Fool a batter, Throw off their timing, Get them out it front of the pitch, etc. Whatever you call it. Bottom line is, you're not going to blow a change up past a hitter, so as I said, you're going to get them to start their swing sequence before they should. IMO, the only BAD time to throw a change is with a 3-X count. The reason I say that is because I'm going to throw it in such a location that I'm likely not going to get a called strike. It's either going to be low enough or far enough outside that I won't get the called strike on a no swing. The exception is if I'm pitching around a known Good Hitter with an open base and a weaker hitter to follow. I also agree that you don't want to throw ANY of your pitches in ANY known sequence. That defeats the purpose of being able to mask your pitches. If you throw the same pitches in the same counts with any predictability, you may as well abandon your catchers signs and just have her call out to the pitcher what she wants her to throw. That's common sense I hope. But that said, you CAN use patterns to help you throughout the course of a game. You just have to be smart about it and not get burned. Example... show an outside change, off the plate to a hitter with an 0-2 or 1-2 count 2 times through the order, then on the 3rd, throw a rise on the inside half of the plate, or a fastball up and in. You get the picture. Using your pitches wisely is like a game of chess, especially as you get to the advanced levels of play.

 

[FrozenRope]

I am a firm believer that most players, at least at the 10U, 12U and 14U levels (all my DD has played so far), have a 6-8MPH 'sweet spot' for hitting. Any pitches faster or slower than the 'sweet spot' will give batters trouble. We are seeing a good demonstration of that right now in high school feeder ball. My DD, who is used to hitting against 52-60MPH pitching at 14U ASA A, is seeing 40-45MPH fastball from some of the feeder ball pitchers, and their change ups are 35MPH! It seems like it should be easy for my DD to step in and rip balls to the fence, but she has struggles so far this season.

That said, my DD has always had a hard time throwing a backspin change up, so we switched her to a 'sidehand' change up. It took out a lot of the wrist flick and timing issues and still gives her 8-10MPH drop in speed from her fastball.

Are the other hitters struggling as well? In my experience, you put a girl that's used to seeing a 50-60 MPH Fastball in a league where the pitching drops to 40ish and you get the 4th of July. It's like BP in the game.

 

[Greenmonsters]

To speak of a plate ONLY having corners for any level of ball less than 16U or 18U is arrogance. The majority of pitchers just aren't that good at that age, especially at 12U, which is the topic of this thread. OK... Symantics. Fool a batter, Throw off their timing, Get them out it front of the pitch, etc. Whatever you call it. Bottom line is, you're not going to blow a change up past a hitter, so as I said, you're going to get them to start their swing sequence before they should. IMO, the only BAD time to throw a change is with a 3-X count. The reason I say that is because I'm going to throw it in such a location that I'm likely not going to get a called strike. It's either going to be low enough or far enough outside that I won't get the called strike on a no swing. The exception is if I'm pitching around a known Good Hitter with an open base and a weaker hitter to follow. I also agree that you don't want to throw ANY of your pitches in ANY known sequence. That defeats the purpose of being able to mask your pitches. If you throw the same pitches in the same counts with any predictability, you may as well abandon your catchers signs and just have her call out to the pitcher what she wants her to throw. That's common sense I hope. But that said, you CAN use patterns to help you throughout the course of a game. You just have to be smart about it and not get burned. Example... show an outside change, off the plate to a hitter with an 0-2 or 1-2 count 2 times through the order, then on the 3rd, throw a rise on the inside half of the plate, or a fastball up and in. You get the picture. Using your pitches wisely is like a game of chess, especially as you get to the advanced levels of play.

Earlier posters suggested throwing the change up outside, low or off the corner - if the pitcher can do that, then they certainly should be able to throw it inside off the corner equally as well (or poorly as the case may be). I don't know of any pitcher wearing a uniform, regardless of age, who isn't throwing to a target. Yes, it may be arrogant to think of the plate as having only corners, but the truth is after U10 or U12 at the latest, those corners are the target the pitchers should be aiming for when they're ahead in the count. IMO, this approach and mentality not only applicable to but desirable for the age groups mentioned, even though its implementation may be imperfect.

And as far as pitch sequences or patterns being a matter of common sense, go back and read the early posts - specific counts mentioned are 0-2, 2 strikes, or first pitch. I'd say 85% or more of the change ups I've seen thrown U12 through U16 are thrown in those counts so maybe sequencing isn't as well understood as it should be. At U18 that number is still well over 50% IME. I'd sacrifice 2 or 3 strikeouts on 0-2 change ups per game for a game in which the change up gets no strikeouts but is used less predictably and results in 15-20 at bats where the mix of speeds has batters timing out of synch.

PS - checkers is a bridge to chess.

 

[Axe]

Many thanks to Ken and others who responded to this post. Even without video, you correctly guessed at the flaw in my daughter's flip change. After one practice of focusing on releasing it earlier closer to the hip she made dramatic progress. We'll keep working but its so encouraging to finally see the pitch doing what its supposed to. We won't be so reluctant to use it in games now which should really build her confidence.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Here is my DD... whata you think of her "Back Flip Change Up" ??? its at the end and marked... I know she is dragging foot like a plow horse, and not holding hand up at finish...but not slapping leg though...

Sky View - YouTube

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Here is my DD... whata you think of her "Back Flip Change Up" ??? its at the end and marked... I know she is dragging foot like a plow horse, and not holding hand up at finish...but not slapping leg though...

Sky View - YouTube

A few comments:

she takes a step with her pivot foot right before push off which is illegal.

she should ALWAYS pitch from a pitching plate during practice when doing the full windmill pitch.

she pulls her arm back after release. Have her finish naturally somewhere in front of her body.

her change-ups are too high in the strike zone and have too much arc on them. Maintain a fast arm circle, throw c/u low and preferably away from the batter.

if she is going to cradle the ball hand with her glove (ala Hillhouse) have her keep them together, longer on the both the back-swing and forward drive as long as possible. Not only does it hide the grip and ball longer, but it keeps all of her momentum going down the powerline towards the catcher.

it seems in all of your videos that you post, everything is so rushed? Slow it down, its all about the "quality" of the pitching practice not the "quantity" of pitches thrown. She should be calm, focused, not-rushed, and then explode off the pitching plate, hold the finish, and then take her time between pitches, going through the same calm routine everytime.Talk to her between pitches. For example, if the ball went to the right, ask her why? ask her how she thinks she can correct it on the next pitch?, etc.

If you really want some feedback on her pitching motion, get more close-up video from the front, side, and from behind.

 

[Perfect Circle]

If you really want some feedback on her pitching motion, get more close-up video from the front, side, and from behind.

Thankz again I appreciate your time ! Yes, I know about the hurry up. We are usually trying to record in less than 3 min. It takes to long to render if not 3 min. or under. I never set up the back yard with a rubber, because she always has to warm up out on the grass at the games. She does do a very good job of keeping hands separated with ball in glove hand, then shakes off the call before she collects.

This time I was trying to shoot for 3 post. Overhand throwing, warm ups, and "Back flip change up" She has only been doing it for two weeks. We got a scrimmage (tourney kinda) this Sunday, and we are getting it ready if needed... asap.

We would call this the hurry up and get ready, your coming in drill... I will get some real pitching stuff for you sir.This is the first time I have seen from behind. But we were really hurrying because I had to climb up on the roof to start and stop camera...we will get a third hand next time. The thing I like about the progress on the CU, is she sells it pretty good...she keeps the same motion. She can do alot better, but she could have done alot worse. The camera and just making the video, is a game pressure simulation. I was happy I wasn't having to go run after any, or do a re-take.

Again thank you..also I wanted to ask you if you have any links to your info on not icing ?