2 seam VS 4 seam fastballs/disadvantage?

[Hillhouse]

Riseball, I agree, there are differences between males and females in certain things. But......... more and more guys like me are into the college game. I can name at least 15 D1 coaches off the top of my head that I played with/against. From Top ranked Oregon on down to mid major level teams. And if you don't believe the 2 games are merging into one with the men's influence then I think we are seeing 2 different things. Watch Mike White, Mike Larabee, Shawn Rychcik (NC State) etc. coach a game. They are calling pitches like crazy not only to help the hitter but to drive the pitcher insane. White even did it to his own daughter who went to Stanford telling her after the game if she listened to him all those years this would've have been so easy!!!!! But he's DAD and knows nothing.

I whole heartedly disagree that majority of hitters (Good, great hitters) don't recognize the spin. More and more sure are and Team USA women is sure trained to do it. why not anyone else's team?

Bill

 

[riseball]

Riseball, I agree, there are differences between males and females in certain things. But......... more and more guys like me are into the college game. I can name at least 15 D1 coaches off the top of my head that I played with/against. From Top ranked Oregon on down to mid major level teams. And if you don't believe the 2 games are merging into one with the men's influence then I think we are seeing 2 different things. Watch Mike White, Mike Larabee, Shawn Rychcik (NC State) etc. coach a game. They are calling pitches like crazy not only to help the hitter but to drive the pitcher insane. White even did it to his own daughter who went to Stanford telling her after the game if she listened to him all those years this would've have been so easy!!!!! But he's DAD and knows nothing.

I whole heartedly disagree that majority of hitters (Good, great hitters) don't recognize the spin. More and more sure are and Team USA women is sure trained to do it. why not anyone else's team?

Bill

Bill,

I agree that the two games are merging with a heavy influence from the mens game. Which is totally awesome. However, I would qualify that statement that it is the exception not the norm. You used the great examples of Mike White, Mike Larabee, Shawn Rychcik as coaches and Team USA with respect to hitting. What about the other 99% of the softball universe? One of the biggest problems I see with the development of the womens game is people think the norm is what they see on ESPN and the SEC channel. No, not every college pitcher throws in the mid to high 60's. The reality is that most college pitchers playing for over 1,700 college programs live in the high 50's to low 60's range. Which is why I still say that most hitters even at the college level do not recognize spin, much less do anything with the information. Should they learn it? Absolutely, as it will only make them better. Maybe along the way even learn how to effectively put down a bunt somewhere north of the 50th percentile, but I digress.

While I do not advocate dumbing down the game to the lowest common denominator I do think we need to stay realistic with respect to level of competition and skill level. A prime example is the change up. Why is it so few pitchers learn to master this pitch? I would submit that an unrealistic expectation of performance is a big part of it. I have seen many a kid with a serviceable CU or off speed pitch that the all knowing Mike White, Mike Larabee, Shawn Rychcik wannabe will never call. Why? Because she slows her arm down, tips the pitch and can't throw it for a perfect strike. While that may be true and she may not have a perfect change up, it is also true that she is 14 years old and pitching in a JV High School game. But instead of throwing it, letting the kid be effective and gain some confidence we stay with fastballs down the middle and she get rocked. All because she is tipping her CU and someone like Sierra Romero will pick up on it and send it to the cheap seats. Did I mention she is 14 pitching in a JV High School game?

I have seen the same thing happen with throwing multiple pitches. Kid has a killer 4 seam moving down and in and she can put it in a tea cup. In addition she has a decent change up that she cannot throw for a strike but usually will not leave fat. But the dude on the bucket is also calling curves, crops, drops and at least 2 other fantasy pitches to "keep the batter off balance". So instead of being effective with 1 great and 1 decent pitch the hitters are sitting on fatty down the middle which the bucket bozo eventually provides. Afterward he yells to her - "HIT YOUR SPOTS!!!"

My point is that although a 4 seam may provide more movement and keep Sierra guessing, if a kid throws a 2 seam with good command and movement I would not coach it out of her. It may be all she will need to be successful in her softball career. At least until she gets out of High School.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Head games! A hitter who picks up the spin or knows what is coming still has to hit it. Case in point, look at all the full time professional hitters with unlimited resources i.e. MLBers - how many are successful more than 30% of the time? The value of mixing speeds and mixing movements is lost on many.

 

[Hillhouse]

Bill,

I agree that the two games are merging with a heavy influence from the mens game. Which is totally awesome. However, I would qualify that statement that it is the exception not the norm. You used the great examples of Mike White, Mike Larabee, Shawn Rychcik as coaches and Team USA with respect to hitting. What about the other 99% of the softball universe? One of the biggest problems I see with the development of the womens game is people think the norm is what they see on ESPN and the SEC channel. No, not every college pitcher throws in the mid to high 60's.

But shouldn't that be what they strive for? I mean for the pitchers/hitters who strive for long term success, not the summer rec player who doesn't really care. Of course the 1% are the ones who will make it but I can't imagine someone who is serious not striving for this hard.

Bill

 

[riseball]

But shouldn't that be what they strive for? I mean for the pitchers/hitters who strive for long term success, not the summer rec player who doesn't really care. Of course the 1% are the ones who will make it but I can't imagine someone who is serious not striving for this hard.

Bill

I agree. That was kind of what there rest of my post was about. Although unattainable one should always strive for perfection. However, it is better to throw a good pitch in the game today than waiting until it is great pitch months or years from now.

 

[sluggers]

Great discussion between Bill and Rise. Both make good points. Nice to see two people discussing something without going off the rails.

Just my $.02...which may be worth less than $.02:

1) The number of "seams" into the wind has no effect on softball movement. The softball is quite a bit bigger than a baseball. making the effect of seams on movement less in softball than baseball. The difference in friction between a 4 seam and a 2 seam is insignificant.

2) If a pitcher simply rotates the ball in her hand and throws the ball, there will be no difference in movement between a 2 seam and a 4 seam. The difference between the two pitches is how the ball is released. This is a pretty good explanation of how to throw a 2 seam fastball...https://youtu.be/NyaMsAHmJK8

3) A 4 seam orientation makes it more difficult for a batter to recognize the pitch. But, to Rise's point, it may not make much of a difference to most FP batters.

 

[Classof2020]

There is more to throwing a "2 seam fastball" than simply changing the position of the fingers on the ball.

In order to throw something like the MLB 2-seamer, your DD has to learn how to change the orientation of the rotation axis of the pitch. If you look at Perfect's video, you can see that the axis of rotation of the two pitches is different. This changes the movement of the pitch.

If all your DD does is simply rotate the ball in her hand to change how her fingers lay on the ball, there will be no difference in movement.

Thanks Sluggers. Riseball can you confirm or deny this based on your daughter's experience . . . and if so do you have some advice related to learning this change of release. I do see the difference in the video above but not sure that is what I'm looking for - all I can see is the tape and not seams from that distance - the rotation on the first pitch looks just like my DD's IR FB and the second looks like my DD's CU when she leave it high.

My DD's recent complaint has been that she feels like she doesn't have the control of the ball when she is throwing 2 seam, so maybe if there is a slight release adjustment too then that might help. I guess we'll just get out on a semi-dry day with the striped ball and see what she can do

 

[riseball]

Sluggers is dead on - "There is more to throwing a "2 seam fastball" than simply changing the position of the fingers on the ball." Regardless of the grip and the spin if the orientation of the axis is wrong the pitch will fail. As to the grip, you may want to note what is happening in the attached of Jake at 12. As with any pitch there are slight nuances that come into play.

 

[sluggers]

I have to correct I said before: From a Magnus force point of view, the presence or absence of the seams don't matter. But the Magnus force doesn't have anything to do with the 2 seamer.

SO:

If you throw a normal drop ball, the ball will have 12-6 spin. The axis of rotation parallel to the line between 1st and 3rd. In physics terminology, the axis of rotation is perpendicular to the direction of movement of the ball.

If you throw a pitch with bullet spin, the axis of rotation is perpendicular to the line between home and 3rd and parallel to the line between home and 2nd. From a physics point of view, the axis of rotation and the direction of the ball are co-linear...they are on the same line.

With a properly thrown 2-seam fastball, the axis of rotation and the direction of ball are *NOT* on the same line. The axis of rotation is slightly off center.

If you were catching a 2 seam pitch, the seams would be very visible on one side of the ball, but not the other. Thus, the friction on one side of the ball is greater than the other side of the ball. The seams act like a rudder. (This is *not* the Magnus affect.)

In some ways, the 2 seamer is very similar to the knuckleball in that the seam orientation, not the spin of the ball, produces the movement.

 

[Perfect Circle]

I have to correct I said before: From a Magnus force point of view, the presence or absence of the seams don't matter. But the Magnus force doesn't have anything to do with the 2 seamer.
If you were catching a 2 seam pitch, the seams would be very visible on one side of the ball, but not the other. Thus, the friction on one side of the ball is greater than the other side of the ball. The seams act like a rudder. (This is *not* the Magnus affect.)

I disagree with bold.... Respectfully.