Is it a rise?

Confused.

If a pitch is released by the pitcher and travels on an upward incline without dropping until caught by the catcher, is it a rise?

If not, is it because it must also have backspin?

Is a low rise which starts low and breaks neither up nor down a 'rise' simply because it has backspin?


Sorry for the confusion. How can a flat, low, backspin pitch can be called a rise, but a corkscrew pitch that actually starts low and finishes high on a laser is not a riseball. Or is it??

When someone mentions a "riseball" to someone who teaches pitching, what comes to mind is mainly the grip and attempted rotation of the ball. When we teach a "riseball," we're working on a pitch with backspin.

My oldest daughter (back 14 years ago) often threw a corkscrew type fastball that was released low and ended up high. She had very good velocity. People, even some coaches, would say, "Boy, she's got a good riseball." Funny thing was, she never threw a pitch with backspin. That is, she never really threw a "riseball." That is, she never learned the riseball grip, and she never worked on getting backspin. She never got backspin in any way shape or form. She simply threw a low-to-high corkscrew, or a near corkscrew tilted a little toward a forward-rotating spin.

A pitching coach who is working on a "riseball" with a pitching student is working on getting good backspin with good velocity. Given the right-handed pitcher tends to get a slightly tilted axis when throwing the riseball (axis tilting a little toward a curveball), I believe their riseball is more of a rise-curve. The backspin helps it drop less (or rise, if you believe a riseball can rise from original trajectory), AND the slightly tilted axis toward a curveball makes the pitch drift out a little against a right-handed batter. When the RH pitcher releases this a hair late, it will tend to be outside and up on a RH batter. When the RH pitcher releases it earlier, it will tend to be lower and more inside on RH batter. Of course, there are exceptions. I believe that most pitching coaches who catch these riseballs for their student actually see these things.

So, a low rise is simply a backspin pitch released early so as to come in low and preferably inside (in my opinion). The batter thinks it's going to drop well below where it ends up.
A riseball (backspin) released a bit later will end up higher and preferably just outside (in my opinion).

Can of worms time!

Welcome Otto. Ken B will tell you that the new guys supply the coffee... I prefer espresso!

Your first question... Yes.
Your second question... Yes.
Your third question... No. There are levels of riseballs. A riseball... as you said, is released on an upward trajectory with a speed that prevents gravity from taking it down, with a backspin. As a comparison, a backflip change is released with backspin... but the speed allows gravity to make it fall.
Your fourth question... a rise, rises. Corkscrew spin won't hurt the pitch... but backspin will help it... providing it is fast enough.

Regarding Jennie Finch's "riseball"....

"It's a pitch that can start low out of the strike zone and end up in the zone. Or it can start at the top of the strike zone and climb higher and higher."

That is, starts out a bit too far inside and low, but end up catching the low-mid inside edge or the strike zone.
Or, it can appear to be something that will hit the mid-high outside corner of the zone only to end up higher and further outside than anticipated.

"A lower release point allows the pitch to start around the batter's knees and break back into the strike zone, while a later snap of the wrist will start higher around the batter's chest and end above her head."

Here is the article... It does have some questionable comments, however.

Why the rise ball is the most baffling softball pitch to hit - Sports - Mobile Adv

Do I believe a backspin pitch makes the ball jump? I don't.
Do I believe a backspin helps the ball fight gravity, thus resulting in a pitch that doesn't fall as much as the other pitches (assuming same velocity)? Absolutely! And that is all a (backspinning) "riseball" needs to do to help fool the batter.

Here is another site with some interesting perspective regarding the "riseball"

Rise Ball Secrets Great softball pitching hints and recommendations for girl softball pitchers

Really none of the posters, I feel can answer this as well as our lost uncle Hal. He once watched a rise ball stop just before the batter and float in mid air spinning, before continuing to the catcher.

nanotech14 said:

Really none of the posters, I feel can answer this as well as our lost uncle Hal. He once watched a rise ball stop just before the batter and float in mid air spinning, before continuing to the catcher.

Click to expand...

I can't stop chuckling over this reminder!!!

Otto, you may be a troll. But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry for the confusion. How can a flat, low, backspin pitch can be called a rise, but a corkscrew pitch that actually starts low and finishes high on a laser is not a riseball. Or is it??

Click to expand...

There is the "physics" side of pitching. Then, there is the perceptual side of pitching.

PHYSICS

Let's assume the pitcher is standing on a platform so that her release point is 8 feet off the ground, and that she is throwing the ball at 60 MPH. She throws the ball perfectly horizontal, with no upward or downward trajectory.

Over the distance of 40 feet from her release to the batter:

1) A ball with no spin (no backspin or topspin) will fall about 4.5 feet.
2) A ball thrown with corkscrew spin will also fall about 4.5 feet.
3) A ball thrown at 30 RPS back spin will fall about 2.5 feet.
4) A ball thrown with 30 RPS top spin will fall about 6.5 feet.
5) A ball with 10 RPS top spin will fall about 5 feet.

So, from a strictly physics point of view, the ball does not "rise". With backspin, the ball falls less.

PERCEPTION

Of course, no one really cares about the physics. Everyone cares about whether the batter can hit the ball. The real question in softball/baseball is, "What does the batter perceive?"

Perception is different.

Batters spend most of their time hitting fastballs in practice. They are trained to hit fastballs. (And, I'm sure you know that good batters are "looking" for the fastball.)

So, a batter facing a pitcher throwing a fastball with 10RPS top spin will perceive that pitch as flat.

A batter will perceive a ball thrown with 30 RPS backspin as "rising" a lot. A batter will perceive a ball thrown with corkscrew spin as rising a little.

Sluggers, That post goes in the "evidence and science" file of my pitching files! Very nice post!


Also, of all the pitchers who claim to throw a "riseball", I wonder what percent of them actually get backspin. I have found the "palm up at 9:00" philosophy of pitching, along with the arm whip (rather than hello-elbow bowling) style of pitching to be much more conducive to learning to throw a "riseball" (i.e., a pitch with backspin and good velocity). Funny thing is when you run across folks who know nothing about the palm up at 9:00 and the associated arm-whip type pitching mechanics, they often step forward to try to correct that which they do not understand.

Sluggers' post is likely to be as good a post on this "riseball" topic as we're going to see--the physics and the batter's perception. Great stuff!

Very nicely explanation by sluggers. Some of the readers might be interested in the links I have on the physics of fastpitch softball pitching. One of the links is to a presentation I gave a few years ago based on analysis I did of pitch trajectories from the 2011 WCWS. The trajectories were measured by the same camera system that is used in every MLB stadium these days to track baseball trajectories.
http:// http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/softball.html