New PC - Advice and Sympathy Needed
- Thread starter Classof2020
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
And the answer is!
NO...........
NO...........
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
And the answer is!
NO...........
This whole phenomena of using I/R then artificially and uselessly pointing your elbow at the catcher well after release is killing me. I am seeing it everywhere now.
And the answer is!
NO...........
What I'm hoping to get at is that just because someone can post a video or pic of Thomas, Ueno, Scarborough, or Hollowell with the palm facing the shoulder and elbow pointing towards the target, does not mean they don't whip well or not utilize I/R where needed.
Same for looking at a photo of someone at 10 o'clock:
When learning the basics, I think it helps to follow some guidleines and avoid certain postions, motions, etc.
I would love to know what pitches CT, YU, and AH were throwing that led to palm up/elbow point finish (drop?)
- Nov 3, 2012
- 480
- 16
Ken,
From my laymans analysis of Chelsea Thomas, she does have a high follow through on the peel drop which puts her in a hello elbow position. I dont think she does that in other pitches. Do you think the extended high follow through helps generate addtional top spin?
I've teaching my daughter to follow through high on the peel and yes I think it does look a lot like HE. I guess the question is ok to have less IR on a peel drop with a high follow through?
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
It isn't "useless" at all in many cases.........Especially for top level pitchers...........
There is a LOT of confusion that surrounds the "Hello Elbow" DELIVERY.........Vs. what I termed I/R RECOIL............
The simple fact that someone's elbow moves forward from the rib cage toward the target after release, which is natural and CORRECT, being combined with some flexion at the elbow joint AFTER release, DOES NOT, in and of itself, have anything to do with creating a delivery method that is dependent on BENDING THE ELBOW TOWARD THE BICEP TO PROPEL THE BALL........
There are FORCED actions that are TRYING TO RELY ON ELBOW BEND TO THROW THE BALL.........And there are natural follow thru's that are about energy dissipation/relaxation and recoil from extension that are a RESULT of a well thrown ball directed at a target............
If you are going to RELY on the simple fact that someone's FOLLOW THROUGH includes flexion in the elbow joint to determine whether he/she uses proper delivery mechanics, then you are missing for FOREST THRU THE TREES.........
What matters is what happens long before follow through...........
The simple fact that a pitching coach likes the student to FINISH with the hand toward the throwing shoulder does not mean that the coach is TEACHING THE STUDENT to throw the ball BY BENDING THE ELBOW HARD AND FAST at the moment of RELEASE........
YOU MUST KNOW THE DIFFERENCE before making judgement on whether the coach is helping or hurting fastpitch delivery mechanics..........
My layman's response is to use whatever works to get the most out of a pitch. Different cues work for different folks. There are many good peel-drop pitchers who finish palm down. As pointed out above, I think the feel going into and at release are more important than focusing on the final hand/arm position.
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
It isn't "useless" at all in many cases.........Especially for top level pitchers...........
There is a LOT of confusion that surrounds the "Hello Elbow" DELIVERY.........Vs. what I termed I/R RECOIL............
The simple fact that someone's elbow moves forward from the rib cage toward the target after release, which is natural and CORRECT, being combined with some flexion at the elbow joint AFTER release, DOES NOT, in and of itself, have anything to do with creating a delivery method that is dependent on BENDING THE ELBOW TOWARD THE BICEP TO PROPEL THE BALL........
There are FORCED actions that are TRYING TO RELY ON ELBOW BEND TO THROW THE BALL.........And there are natural follow thru's that are about energy dissipation/relaxation and recoil from extension that are a RESULT of a well thrown ball directed at a target............
If you are going to RELY on the simple fact that someone's FOLLOW THROUGH includes flexion in the elbow joint to determine whether he/she uses proper delivery mechanics, then you are missing for FOREST THRU THE TREES.........
What matters is what happens long before follow through...........
The simple fact that a pitching coach likes the student to FINISH with the hand toward the throwing shoulder does not mean that the coach is TEACHING THE STUDENT to throw the ball BY BENDING THE ELBOW HARD AND FAST at the moment of RELEASE........
YOU MUST KNOW THE DIFFERENCE before making judgement on whether the coach is helping or hurting fastpitch delivery mechanics..........
Ya lost me BM. I was referring to the two clips (and more and more that I see now that it has been pointed out) where the pitcher pitches with I/R, the follow through is smooth and natural and then sometime after all the energy is dissipated from the pitch, the pitcher FORCES her elbow to be flexed and/or towards the catcher. I was not making any statement about the delivery or the relationship between the finish position and the actual pitch mechanics. I realized long ago that many pitchers finish with an elbow up but in fact pitch with I/R.
The last little move in this clip has what I am talking about. looks like all the energy is gone from the pitch and everything is smooth, then that last little elbow bend looks like a pasted on action to the pitch. I'm not saying it is bad, just useless..
Last edited:
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
This whole phenomena of using I/R then artificially and uselessly pointing your elbow at the catcher well after release is killing me. I am seeing it everywhere now.
And the answer is!
NO...........
Squeeze........You responded to my post of Alicia Hollowell above by saying that you are seeing "useless pointing of the elbow at the catcher everywhere now"............
So I could only assume that you believed Alicia was doing exactly that......."Useless pointing of the elbow well after release"...........Which she isn't..........
Regardeless.........My post wasn't directly at you specifically...........I've seen so many posts about "Hello Elbow", with questions/statement being driven toward "she finishes with hello elbow so that can't be right"..........
THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT a parent being really concerned/frustrated because a team pitching coach asked DD to "finish with the hand toward the throwing shoulder"............And his response was to ASSUME that she is not teaching correct delivery mechanics............
Here is the CRUX of this thread from the OP............
And then she says it . . . wait for it . . . "ok try it again and this time lets have a nice strong follow-through with your hand coming up more toward your shoulder"
ugh
My post was made to shed some light on THIS (SEEMINGLY INHERENT) CONCERN of "throwing the baby out with the bath water" just because a coach asks a pitcher to finish toward the throwing shoulder..........
Last edited:
- May 17, 2012
- 2,803
- 113
I agree the devil is in the details. When I describe it to players and parents I tend to use the words "Push vs. Pull".
My DD is working on a peel drop and she actually doesn't IR all the way through. For learning purposes she actually finishes with a high follow through on the peel drop. She did this to learn how to orient the axis of the ball and spin it (hard). When she puts it all together she finishes like she does on her other pitches which is palm down across the waist.
If you saw her doing this drill you might think she didn't know the correct mechanics. If you took a picture of her finish on that drill you might say she is pitching with hello elbow, I would say the ball was released well before that with the correct mechanics.
I hope that makes sense...
My DD is working on a peel drop and she actually doesn't IR all the way through. For learning purposes she actually finishes with a high follow through on the peel drop. She did this to learn how to orient the axis of the ball and spin it (hard). When she puts it all together she finishes like she does on her other pitches which is palm down across the waist.
If you saw her doing this drill you might think she didn't know the correct mechanics. If you took a picture of her finish on that drill you might say she is pitching with hello elbow, I would say the ball was released well before that with the correct mechanics.
I hope that makes sense...
