Is this what Makes the shoulder drop?
The shoulders tilt due to the torso getting tilted. If you're attempting to tilt with the shoulders, you're doing it wrong.
Help with swing, 15YO
- Thread starter MandM
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The shoulders tilt due to the torso getting tilted. If you're attempting to tilt with the shoulders, you're doing it wrong.
mann said:
Yes. But remember mann, you asked me to look at the clip in its entirety.
And that is appropriate, especially with a clip at this speed.
I'm going to include a picture taken about 76 frames / clicks into Albert's sequence.
This picture shows a pin running between Albert's hands.
The next picture then shows a different angle to the pin, indicating a pivoting action has taken place.
Then the 3rd picture shows that the pin has moved yet again-----but to a lesser degree.
Why? Because his rear hip has "snagged the hands". You can see in the clip when this takes place.
Click to make this larger.
Interesting difference right there between, imo, a hitter "maintaining connection" and a hitter "passing thru connection".
Let me say that another way,
Very general for my students but it helps me too....
The hands load behind the rear hip, but they end up "passing" the rear hip.
I want those hands to pass the rear hip....I just don't want them to do so as THEIR FIRST MOVE.
So, that begs the question, "What is the first move? (of the hands)....maybe it's easier to think about what the first move IS NOT...The first move is not for those hands to go forward. The first move is ----- they turn.
While the hands are turning,,,,
The lower body is well, well, well, underway, back knee driving, then the hip snagging the hands.
How do I know that? How do I know that Albert is turning the bat?,
Well, here's what I see, Albert's bat, between the hands and the barrel is what I call the shaft of the bat. The shaft of the bat, in this clip, makes its way around Albert's rear shoulder. You see that sir?
I can't make a bat do that without the bat being 'turned'.....with my hands....that's the feel / the reality....just depends on how you view it.
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- Oct 12, 2009
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Clearly, you don't understand connection.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Mann, no one is suggesting that you ignore what is plainly visible. Those offering you advice believe in the Hanson Principle. So what gives? How can two people see the same swings so differently?
What gives is that they see the video with knowledge of under-the-hood actions … and that knowledge can be all the difference between producing ‘good’ hitters and producing ‘exceptional’ hitters.
These people offering you advice are skeptical if you are swinging a bat for verification purposes, and for a good reason … they swing bats and they only had the answers you have when they weren't swinging. They run the same experiments that they are recommending to you, and they video the result for confirmation via the Hanson Principle.
Give it a shot. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. I’ve seen the hitters on your web space, and they have a great deal of ground to cover.
Simply try what folks are recommending while videoing yourself. Compare swings via your approach versus their approach. Then review the video and allow the video to be your guide.
Don’t perform these tests by simply performing tee work … that isn’t nearly sufficient.
Get in the box, crank up the pitching machine, and prove things out to yourself.
Jack the machine up to 70mph while placed 37ft away (43ft – 6ft stride) and handle inside/outside/high/low pitch locations with turn-the-box/hold-the-hinge-angle mechanics. I couldn’t do it … but I’m old. And let’s be honest … some of your kids look a bit recreational, and they likely couldn’t do it either. But introduce the hands … teach the rear leg … teach sequence, rhythm, early/slow & SnF … and when I do that, then I can deal with the pitch speed and location changes … and if an old man can do it, then with a bit of work your hitters could also.
Still not done. Hitting ‘speed’ is relatively easy once you get the hang of it. Sort of like candy … "c’mon coach, crank it up, I want to launch a few". You guessed it … the next task is to have the person running the machine vary the speed while varying the location. How well are you able to adjust? From the looks of what I’ve seen of your hitters, they will be challenged big time when dealing with variable speed. Their basic overall sequence isn’t sound enough … but you can change that. And the process for that change begins by climbing in the box and testing out what folks are recommending.
If that isn't for you ... then so be it. If you want to visit (you are only a few hours away), then that works ... I have some spots available this weekend.
What gives is that they see the video with knowledge of under-the-hood actions … and that knowledge can be all the difference between producing ‘good’ hitters and producing ‘exceptional’ hitters.
These people offering you advice are skeptical if you are swinging a bat for verification purposes, and for a good reason … they swing bats and they only had the answers you have when they weren't swinging. They run the same experiments that they are recommending to you, and they video the result for confirmation via the Hanson Principle.
Give it a shot. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. I’ve seen the hitters on your web space, and they have a great deal of ground to cover.
Simply try what folks are recommending while videoing yourself. Compare swings via your approach versus their approach. Then review the video and allow the video to be your guide.
Don’t perform these tests by simply performing tee work … that isn’t nearly sufficient.
Get in the box, crank up the pitching machine, and prove things out to yourself.
Jack the machine up to 70mph while placed 37ft away (43ft – 6ft stride) and handle inside/outside/high/low pitch locations with turn-the-box/hold-the-hinge-angle mechanics. I couldn’t do it … but I’m old. And let’s be honest … some of your kids look a bit recreational, and they likely couldn’t do it either. But introduce the hands … teach the rear leg … teach sequence, rhythm, early/slow & SnF … and when I do that, then I can deal with the pitch speed and location changes … and if an old man can do it, then with a bit of work your hitters could also.
Still not done. Hitting ‘speed’ is relatively easy once you get the hang of it. Sort of like candy … "c’mon coach, crank it up, I want to launch a few". You guessed it … the next task is to have the person running the machine vary the speed while varying the location. How well are you able to adjust? From the looks of what I’ve seen of your hitters, they will be challenged big time when dealing with variable speed. Their basic overall sequence isn’t sound enough … but you can change that. And the process for that change begins by climbing in the box and testing out what folks are recommending.
If that isn't for you ... then so be it. If you want to visit (you are only a few hours away), then that works ... I have some spots available this weekend.
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i ment elbow instead of shoulder, sorry.
does the swivel, lower the elbow, or does the elbow lower the hands?
redhotcoach
Out on good behavior
- May 8, 2009
- 4,704
- 38
I am not into debating during the season, and you can show me wrong IDGAF......but I just have to say I loathe when you say "lean to tilt" .....sorry.
ward
Very well put, i want to thank you for your patience. I can cleary see what you are saying, i think, so i will repeat with my own words.
His hands are not connected, and are pretty active, at first. They raise up some, do not stop, kind of a circular movement, and yes i can see when they rip foward connecting to the hips.
I also get hips go first.
the thing i do not get, is, sometimes the barrel does not drop in the same place every time. Does it lower, sooner on outside pitches, and later on inside pitches?
Also, i see him lower the bat head, not Dump, the bat head, so when i hear swivel, its not the same thing as what Albert is doing.
Yes. But remember mann, you asked me to look at the clip in its entirety.
And that is appropriate, especially with a clip at this speed.
I'm going to include a picture taken about 76 frames / clicks into Albert's sequence.
This picture shows a pin running between Albert's hands.
The next picture then shows a different angle to the pin, indicating a pivoting action has taken place.
Then the 3rd picture shows that the pin has moved yet again-----but to a lesser degree.
Why? Because his rear hip has "snagged the hands". You can see in the clip when this takes place.
Click to make this larger.
View attachment 3267
Interesting difference right there between, imo, a hitter "maintaining connection" and a hitter "passing thru connection".
Let me say that another way,
Very general for my students but it helps me too....
The hands load behind the rear hip, but they end up "passing" the rear hip.
I want those hands to pass the rear hip....I just don't want them to do so as THEIR FIRST MOVE.
So, that begs the question, "What is the first move? (of the hands)....maybe it's easier to think about what the first move IS NOT...The first move is not for those hands to go forward. The first move is ----- they turn.
While the hands are turning,,,,
The lower body is well, well, well, underway, back knee driving, then the hip snagging the hands.
How do I know that? How do I know that Albert is turning the bat?,
Well, here's what I see, Albert's bat, between the hands and the barrel is what I call the shaft of the bat. The shaft of the bat, in this clip, makes its way around Albert's rear shoulder. You see that sir?
I can't make a bat do that without the bat being 'turned'.....with my hands....that's the feel / the reality....just depends on how you view it.
Very well put, i want to thank you for your patience. I can cleary see what you are saying, i think, so i will repeat with my own words.
His hands are not connected, and are pretty active, at first. They raise up some, do not stop, kind of a circular movement, and yes i can see when they rip foward connecting to the hips.
I also get hips go first.
the thing i do not get, is, sometimes the barrel does not drop in the same place every time. Does it lower, sooner on outside pitches, and later on inside pitches?
Also, i see him lower the bat head, not Dump, the bat head, so when i hear swivel, its not the same thing as what Albert is doing.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
I actually like this question. Suggests to me that you may be running some experiments.
One could of course ask you about the muscles in the elbow that make the hand move ..... but that would be silly.
I believe what you are asking is if it is the desire to slot the elbow that causes the hands to move, or the desire to use the hands that cause the elbows to slot. The answer is the hands ..... that is, it is the formation of the connection process to the hands that causes the slotting process. The movement of the elbow is a 'result'.
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I worked with two girls today. One was new.
the new girl, would raise up while she swung, which pulled her head out. I showed her a bat, and the angle of her spine, at stretch, and said to keep the angle while she turned. How, i said scrunch right here in your back, as you turn.
turn your lean at stretch, into tilt. lean to tilt, sorry redhot, they get the cue.
if you keep the angle, the head stays still. The degree of tilt does change slightly, if its way up in the zone, the Cabrera clips show this, he raises up. you can also increase the angle.
she did great, adjusting to pitches, she had been taught level shoulders before today.
redhotcoach
Out on good behavior
- May 8, 2009
- 4,704
- 38
DUMP is a word that has no place in a high level swing. I spent an hour hitting off a jug machine at about 30 feet tonight turned full speed, I could not tell you inside outside or high/low what the f I was doing...the only thought I could get and connect with the ball was "turn the barrel tight". I didn't think about coil, lower half, anything...just turn the barrel tight and hard with a good snf load....with me experimenting...do you need to think about separation and getting a lower half running start (me asking myself). I sure squared up with the ball, sending it to the back of the cage better then ever....and I have faced Darren Zack.
feels SO much easier releasing a swing then it does muscling a swing.
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