The rear leg

[HYP]

I guess you missed my answer.
The weight is against the front side, on the front foot, while the swing is still in the lag position.

Hips are turning, and the rear foot gets pulled forward.
As many times i stare at high level swings in kinovea, i can see no great push from the rear foot, the dirt shows the toe is dragging.
The back foot looks like a walk off, from the side of the big toe.
From the quotes i have been reading, some of you think the swing happens before the bat even gets below the deltoid, and pure momentum, carries the rest of the swing through, riding the rear hip.
I love the one legged golfer analogy, like it proves the swing happens all because of the back leg.

So, looking at the clips below. You see the weight leave the rear foot around the "lag position" (assuming that you see the lag position with the bat on the deltoid, I believe that lag is the whole time the barrel is being pulled by the rear hip)? Can you honestly look at the Bonds clips below and say he didn't get the power from his back leg? It appears to me that Bonds still has weight on that back foot. Also, where does Bonds rear foot get dragged forward?

I do believe that the barrel is gone once it gets just past the traditional lag position. The point of no return. The point the swing can no longer be checked.

So do you believe the swing is being supplied with power the whole way? If so, what is the point of separation? Why bother? just muscle it through the swing. There has to be a suddenness. There has to be a "stretch" and release. Why "stretch" something to only try to muscle it through the zone.

 

[RayR]

As Hyp pointed out - there is a stretch going on....once the stretch is released the swing is essentially over from a power standpoint....

I wouldn't expect it would make sense to you....

In the clip on the right - the swing is over.....if you set it up correctly - you are not worried about ERing the hips or getting the front foot down....you are just trying to line up the barrel with the ball....

This makes no sense to me. Clarify if you wish, or not.

 

[redhotcoach]

Hyp pointed out again what I have said several times...

Some say "I teach coil....They need more seperation....I believe in stretch". Then they talk about a swing "they are pushing forward....lifting their leg.....rotating their hips.....stopping forward push....start pushing backwards" I have said "what is the point of teaching coiling...seperation...stretch...when YOUR swing is continual pushing forces that change directions?

What forces are applied to an arrow when the string is released...it's fired. Would it help the arrow if you pushed it after letting go of the string?

All this "force is applied ________, then it is applied _________, then it is stop________, then it is pushed back _________, then the upper __________" on and on a 80 point description of a .08 second swing. I think a dose of full speed swing video is needed to remember how quickly after launch a swing is done.

 

[softballphreak]

It would definitely be much easier to understand if it was as simple as releasing a string (ever how the string got there in the first place).

The body is much more complex, of course. Lots of angles, forces, etc., working in conjunction with an extremely complex motor system controlled by an even more complex information control center.

Not sure how much education is required to understand the system, but it seems much more than a few years swinging a bat; or trying to teach someone to swing a bat. I'm leaning toward higher education.

The bow and arrow is an example of what I mean. That example leaves out ALL the complexities, except the load maybe.

 

[redhotcoach]

It would definitely be much easier to understand if it was as simple as releasing a string (ever how the string got there in the first place).

I agree sbp...Obviously I join alot of discussions on hitting here, but 95% of what I discuss is the pulling of the string, so to speak.

Not sure how much education is required to understand the system, but it seems much more than a few years swinging a bat; or trying to teach someone to swing a bat. I'm leaning toward higher education.

I also agree. That is why I have been asking to see ANY of the research that "scientists and PHDS have done." Including the differences between a beginners swing and the best hitters swing. The only phds I have seen talk about it are Chris and Tom.

The bow and arrow is an example of what I mean. That example leaves out ALL the complexities, except the load maybe.

Yes...it certainly isn't a perfect comparison...but it covers s n f, and my point of: really how many different forces are to be focused on and possibly taught AFTER the barrel is launched.

 

[RayR]

RHC, I completely understand the bow string analogy - but it has too much of a back and forth feeling to it....it has made more sense in my mind to think of everything as a circle....or at least things going about an arc in one direction....like the finger against the thumb to flick a marble.

The rear leg is always moving in one direction - the rear hip is always moving in another direction - but these directions are arcish - not straight lines...the arcs tighten the coil

As the rear hip resists - it resists along one direction of an arcish path - hence the forward by coiling action. The rear femur is always trying to turn into that resistance....it is why you can swing off the rear leg if you want and a big reason why you can launch the barrel behind the rear hip...

From the sky the rear hip joint (for RH hitter) looks kind of like the path on the left....pushing and hip driven swings are the path on the right:

 

[mann]

So, looking at the clips below. You see the weight leave the rear foot around the "lag position" (assuming that you see the lag position with the bat on the deltoid, I believe that lag is the whole time the barrel is being pulled by the rear hip)? Can you honestly look at the Bonds clips below and say he didn't get the power from his back leg? It appears to me that Bonds still has weight on that back foot. Also, where does Bonds rear foot get dragged forward?

I do believe that the barrel is gone once it gets just past the traditional lag position. The point of no return. The point the swing can no longer be checked.

So do you believe the swing is being supplied with power the whole way? If so, what is the point of separation? Why bother? just muscle it through the swing. There has to be a suddenness. There has to be a "stretch" and release. Why "stretch" something to only try to muscle it through the zone.

Good morning Hyp.

To me lag is not stationary, but we dissagree on what pulls the barrel.
The arms stay locked in front of the shoulder. Show me where they move from the same spot from the scap pinch area?
The upper body, turns by the already turned hips. Shoulders resist. Back arm loaded.

I think you woud have a aHA moment, or maybe you have, which is why you ONLY use the BONDS clip.

IF this Bonds clip was a new youngster, someone would first off say he was "squishing the bug".
His heel ends up further back, than it starts.
I will say this again also, he looks unbalanced with THIS clip, and it is, IMHO, from his weight, not transfered.
A friend of mine, a "stay back" Really he stays back, falls down sometimes because of wieght back, on his foot, the whole time.
POWER, in the swing you ask, A MAIN POWER POP, comes when the FRONT LEG STRAIGHTENS.
LONG AFTER, the BACK LEG is usefull.

my challenge to you HYP, show me another clip, someone else.
I must go to work, I will post some gifs soon.

 

[Wellphyt]

In this clip my dd is doing what jbooth describes:

and what this guy describes:


and what this guy describes here:
What's a Hip Turn? Part 2 :: Oceanic Time Warner Cable's AroundHawaii.com

When my dd is in her batting stance with her feet pointing forward; her rear femur is internally rotated 60 degrees in the hip socket. This is a condition she was born with, and is the reason why she has always appeared to me like she turns her rear knee down-and-in prematurely....leaks the coil.

Despite her condition, she still does a pretty good job of matching the hip action of the pros:

We followed the teachings of Ted Williams and the sevam1 "The Move" video. Ted Williams describes the hip action as a back and forth "move-counter move" of the pelvis. Which is exactly what it is. The hips get turned back, then they get turned forward. You wind the hips back, then you unwind them into the pitch. The primary muscles that create the force are the butt muscles.

The "sevam1" video was helpful because it counters the misguided "turn the rear leg/knee inwards to weight shift" action that kids are being taught today.

My dd's perpetually IR rear leg robs her of power. I expect it will be educational for some to see a before and after comparison of her hitting with a straight leg. Hopefully it will be conclusive enough to steer parents away from instructors who teach kids to weight shift by IR the rear leg.

Ted Williams said he weight shifted by turning his hips back or what is today commonly called coiling. He shifted his weight forward by unwinding his hips into the pitch. He performed this back and forth winding and unwinding action of the hips from a dynamically balanced position. Meaning that when he was turning his hips back and then forward to weight shift; his torso was moving linearly so that he could keep his head close to centered between his feet. Ted tried to keep linear movement of his torso to a minimum, while at the same time recognizing that some linear movement is necessary in order to balance when the front foot gets lifted to begin the weight shift action.

Ted's ideas on hip action, weight shift and linear movement, is why I always cringe a little when I hear others talk about pushing with the rear leg/foot. Seems to me that pushing off forward with the rear foot would create too much forward linear movement resulting in the hitter escorting their hands/the bat to to the ball.

IMO jbooth accurately describes the weight shift as defined by Williams. The start of the weight shift is performed by abduction and external rotation of the rear leg; with the rear foot in a cleat in the dirt and the front leg having little to no weight on it.

Williams was keenly aware that most people thought of the weight shift as shifting weight in a linear direction from one foot to the other. He on the other hand viewed the weight shift as the back and forth turn of the hips.


MATTINGLY: Didn't you shift weight when you hit?

WILLIAMS: I'm going to ask you what your definition of shifting weight is.

MATTINGLY: The transfer of weight.

WILLIAMS: Where to where?

MATTINGLY: From anywhere—from where the head is to six, eight inches.

BOGGS: All right, let's put it in boxing theory. If a boxer hits you, is he going to generate more power from here [indicates a long punch] or more power from here [short punch].

WILLIAMS: He'll generate more power if he doesn't do a thing, then goes umph with his hips.

BOGGS: You're saying all you do is throw the hips? Nothing else? Where do you get the initial movement in the action-reaction process?

WILLIAMS: [He draws two fighters on a piece of paper.] If this guy strides and puts all his weight on his front foot, his weight's forward. I don't want to cheat myself six or eight inches toward the pitcher. Why give him that?

MATTINGLY: I agree with you. I think you have to wait, then explode. I don't think you have to shift to the front leg.

WILLIAMS: That's what you said earlier.

MATTINGLY: NO, I didn't. Well, I did, but I didn't mean to the extent that you're saying all the Lau people do. What I was always taught was to wait, wait, wait, see the ball and then hit it. I get my weight back—wait, wait, wait, then throw it. [He practices his swing.]

WILLIAMS: But you're not really exaggerating the weight shift there.

MATTINGLY: I'm already leaning back, so I've got to get forward some way. From waiting, where I'm giving myself the extra time to see the ball and the extra leverage, I'm exploding. It's the same thing as you're saying.

WILLIAMS: What's impressing me about the two of you is that you talk sense. I don't think you know yourselves as well as you will. Already you're in doubt about some of the things you do, Don. But they're teaching young hitters to hit down, give the pitchers a big advantage with that weight shift and turn over the top hand with that Lau theory.

BOGGS: No, they aren't.

WILLIAMS: YOU don't think so? If you transfer weight, you tell me how you can get your hands underneath. [Boggs takes his stride.] Exaggerate it a little. [Boggs does.] Now that's transferring weight. [Boggs takes his regular swing.] I don't call that transferring weight.

BOGGS: I do, and so would Walter Hriniak. And I've got pictures at home that people have taken at the point of contact where I almost look like you.

GAMMONS: If you look at pictures, the first movement, the cocking of the front knee, is almost exactly the same.

BOGGS: That's how I learned how to hit. I read your book in high school. My father would see me on television and could call me and tell me what I was doing wrong just by the way my front knee was or wasn't being cocked at the beginning of the swing.

WILLIAMS: Did you think I transferred weight?

GAMMONS: As you start your swing, you cock your front leg, and at the point of contact you're coming up off your back foot ever so slightly. That's a shift.

WILLIAMS: That's a hard thing not to do. It's a very little weight shift, more of an unwinding of the hips. A weight shift upsets balance.

BOGGS: I don't know what else you can call it. O.K., tell me how you think I swing?

WILLIAMS: I think you're balanced. But you talk about shifting weight.

MATTINGLY: All good hitters shift their weight. I can't believe they don't. Show me how you get back.

WILLIAMS: I'm doing it with my hips.


Repeat after me: "I'm doing it with my hips"

 

[HYP]

Good morning Hyp.

To me lag is not stationary, but we dissagree on what pulls the barrel.
The arms stay locked in front of the shoulder. Show me where they move from the same spot from the scap pinch area?
The upper body, turns by the already turned hips. Shoulders resist. Back arm loaded.

I think you woud have a aHA moment, or maybe you have, which is why you ONLY use the BONDS clip.

IF this Bonds clip was a new youngster, someone would first off say he was "squishing the bug".
His heel ends up further back, than it starts.
I will say this again also, he looks unbalanced with THIS clip, and it is, IMHO, from his weight, not transfered.
A friend of mine, a "stay back" Really he stays back, falls down sometimes because of wieght back, on his foot, the whole time.
POWER, in the swing you ask, A MAIN POWER POP, comes when the FRONT LEG STRAIGHTENS.
LONG AFTER, the BACK LEG is usefull.

my challenge to you HYP, show me another clip, someone else.
I must go to work, I will post some gifs soon.

I do not understand the question you asked. It maybe me or how it is written. Either way can you help me understand it?

Are you kidding me about, if Bonds was a youngster I would try to fix it. I use the Bonds clip because, IMO he has the quickest, shortest, most powerful swing around. By far, IMO the most efficient mechanics of any hitter ever. The hitter I use as a base line teach, what we are shooting for based off of a players ability, size and personal style. BTW, I believe all elite hitters do the same thing as Bonds. Some just have more forward momentum then others. But the swing is powered the same way.

You say he looks off balance with this clip. There are 2 different clips posted. Does he look off balance in both? I think part of the differences with what we see is you see positions. I see movement. You see off balance. I see dynamic balance.

There are hitters all over this thread. I used other hitters. Who do you want me to use?

 

[RayR]

I don't see any indication that Utley is ERing the femur....constant IR....no shaking in the knee due to contrived ER....