Trouble with looping

[ssarge]

Sarge

Next time I am in California, I have to stop by and see you...great explanation if I do say so myself!

As TSW pointed out in his book, Everyone knows Mike always swung up on the ball too much or something like that around page 69 I think.

Thanks Howard

Howard:

It would be a privilege and a pleasure to meet you / work with you.

I live near the Sorcerer Academy in Northern California (Concord), which is where I instruct. The academy is owned by Phil Mumma, coach of the 18Gold national champion Sorcerer team, and I know he would be please to meet you as well.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[ssarge]

Coach Lotief is a very approachable guy who loves to talk hitting and will be at the Garman classic next week. I am sure he would welcome discussion from any intrepid "forumers in good standing" who are there.

One of the greatest guys in all of softball, and someone I respect very much. He has been exceedingly gracious to me and my daughter, and to many others. I value him dearly as a friend and hitting resource. Anyone who has an opportunity to engage with him should do so. You'll be richer for the experience.

And what he has accomplished as a coach - along with his wife - is unbelievable. Unles you have experienced the landscape, you have NO IDEA what it takes to get a mid-major to OKC. Virtually impossible. But ULL has done it, twice, once finishing (if memory serves), 5th. An INCREDIBLE accomplishment.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[Hitter]

Sarge wrote..."But the proper movement is NOT a "bend at the waist." As Tom knows. Or should know. I assume most will recognize this as a pejorative reference on his part. Tilting and bending are separate concepts. Easy to demonstrate, hard to explain in the written word. Those who lift weights will get an idea by visualizing the posture for a dead lift, rather than for a squat."

We were at a clinic in Warren Pa. a few weeks ago and although they bent at the waist first and softened the knees next the hitter sunk down and dis engaged the core.

The dad wanted to know what I saw, so I pointed out for him to look at the top of her head first and find a reference point on the wall.

Then I ask her to repeat the balance sequence and he said it looked like her head lowered 2 to 3 inches and I commented she is probably a basketball player and has been told to do this however she MUST come up right or go lower in order to move quickly.

I then took a bat and put it under her butt cheeks and you could feel her sit on the bat.

I then had the dad hold the bat himself and this time I said bend at the waist and allow the knees to go more over or towards the toes and she did not sit on the bat.

We did it again and this time he found a reference point to see what the difference was. He said her head moved very little however she was balanced and we tested by pushing on her back and chest alternately.

I never describe balance as posture as posture is what balance looks like however unless you actually saw the hitter do it in sequence you would not know if she was balanced unless you tested for it! So I never say get postured to hit or field or throw as it is what it is and that is balance in my opinion!

Just bending at the waist means nothing unless the spine and knees are put into a position to be in balance with the entire body.

We did the same test the basketball way and she could be moved and rocked toe to heel....measurable and observable and we could test to see if the hitter could feel it.

When you stride you should be able to tun or field or throw or hit as it is an athletic position and if you are leaning backwards it is not natural however it could be your style and if it works OK.

However if it works better you may want to try it. I do not use a high leg kick or wave the bat all over the place. I just try to keep it simple and catch the college coaches attention as to her abilities to hit the ball hard and consistently and let them see her arm.

Most of our college coaches always comment on the stick and arm!

Thanks Howard

 

[ssarge]

Howard:

The idea of "sitting" on the bat is very solid - thanks. I'll use that.

Whether by posture, or some soirt of tilting of the rear shoulder, or in most cases with elite hitters, both, it seems to me inarguable that a hitter HAS to get in a position where the rear shoulder is lower than the front. As seen from the catcher angle, in the half frame or so before contact, a line drawn across the shoulders is typically parallel to the line of the bat down to the ball in virtually all hitters at a high level. This is a sign of connection, and a strong indicator of a healthy swing. It is also important to note that it IS by definition a variance in the hitter's upper body posture. Rear shoulder is lower in relation to the front shoulder for a low pitch than for a high pitch.

In my experience, much of this variance can be accomplished pre-launch by a slight scaling of the tilt. Adding a little lateral shoulder tilt can accentuate it, and my sense is that most hitters do some combination of both. Perhaps emphasizing one more than the other, but doing both. In most cases, almost intuitively. However they do it, they get there. When I work with hitters who do it intuitively, I treat it as a non-teach. When it is not intuitive to the hitter, I approach it from a couple of directions, trying to find what clicks with that hitter. Almost always, we are able to build a process for early (around launch) adjustments which get the hitter to the desired position (still connected) at contact.

I would note - this is hugely important to the point I have made throughout the thread - that the same approach does NOT work for all hitters. Minor variances are required. Again, this is why it is SO important to work with hitters, rather than blindly state what will work without significant field experience. The same thing does not work for all hitters. I DO think they all have to attain the same mechanics. How to build it into any ONE hitter so that it sticks when she is in reactive mode against good pitching is NOT the same. Similarly, when hitters get in a bad pattern, many different things sometimes have to be tried as well to fix it. Hard to know what to try that won't also "break" something else. No two hitters are alike. The experience to know what will work for any one hitter is hard-fought. And I learn more about it every day.
As I know you do.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the rest of us.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[ssarge]

Back to my original post on the thread, because I don't want this to get lost:

I have a hitter that tends to really "loop" or drop the bat barrell low in the zone. This is great for low pitches as she stays very tall through the swing, but has a tendency to loopy with other pitches. Have tried all my stuff, any suggestions out there?

In my experience, the vast majority of "looping" swings are caused by a premature weakening / loss of the bottom hand wrist hinge angle. (assuming proper initial set-up), Hold the hinge angle around the corner, and virtually all "looping" problems are eliminated. It really is that simple.

Regards,

Scott

 

[tom.guerry]

I am all for assigning primary looping blame to the hands/wrists since I am a big hands emphasizer, but I think it is better to think in terms of upper and lower body actions and the body type problem is backside collapse or breakdown and failure to get off the back side.

I use the Epstein system as a basis and because of his difficulty in describing dynamic balance, he spent a lot of time talking about how to prevent upper cutting.etc

However, he has never promoted any kind of swing where the head/upper spine is expected to move back ward to provide rearward tilt of the spine.

If you try Epstein, do not do this.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I use the Epstein system as a basis and because of his difficulty in describing dynamic balance, he spent a lot of time talking about how to prevent upper cutting.etc However, he has never promoted any kind of swing where the head/upper spine is expected to move back ward to provide rearward tilt of the spine.

That's not what this implies...

"Tilting rearward is a product of the HINGING OF THE REAR KNEE...THE MORE THE KNEE HINGES THE MORE THE TILT...My subjective cue for this is DROP (the heel) AND TILT (rearward)."

Admittedly, he didn't say "rearward tilt", but he did say "tilt rearward", which is pretty close.