Too much tee/soft toss analysis, not enough analysis of hitters under pressure?

[RichK]

Rich, I'm not understanding how the "early and slow" was not successful. I understand a hitter's resistance to starting earlier and slower against higher pitch speeds, but once I get a hitter to truly buy in, they find it to be the holy grail to hitting. The only time it doesn't work is when a hitter is not in sequence. If you share the video then I'll comment.

Was traveling for business today, glad to see this drew some interest. FFS, I don't think early and slow is enough. Nor do I necessarily think "sequence" is enough. I just don't. There's the practical application of those ideas under pressure that feels to me like it needs training in and of itself, not in theory but in reality/practice and in particular *under highest-level pressure*....

 

[RichK]

I’ll “speed the game up” in 2mph increments. 62 … 64 … 66 … 68 … 70.

With each increment I’ll bark at the hitter to make sure they maintain a good hitting sequence. This is generally what breaks down … and this can often be recovered if you push the hitter to trust being ‘early & slow’.

I generally agree with moving up in increments, but here's the thing, right?....you don't get to control that in games. You may have a 52 MPH change-of-speed pitcher replaced by a 62 Mph rise ball pitcher and you need to have survival/success skills.

We got all of our hitters hitting 70Mph on Juggs, including those that struggled initially. I'll stick to my earlier contention that there's no holy grail, that there's a point where technical meets the practical and the solutions tend to be very personalized at that point.

Anyway, interesting conversation. Thanks.

 

[Rocketech1]

No video (or accusation vs. anyone here lol), just a thought and question. All of the tee work and soft toss analysis we see on this site is fine and valuable. But I have a new group of 18U girls this fall and I'm very happy with their ability to both look decent and have good, consistent line drive results off tee and soft toss. But they are struggling with high level pitching -- including straightforward speed (ie, plus or minus 60MPH 18U exposure-level pitching).

We put some of the strugglers in the cage yesterday, cranked Juggs up to 70MPH and went to work. Some swing and missed for the entire first bucket and we had to work very hard individually to find the cues and swing thoughts to help them. While we drew on ideas we often see here when evaluating tee swings, they also each required a lot of thought and work that was more practical then purely technical -- and no single approach worked for every hitter. For some we talked about expanding their out-front soft field of vision vs. very high speed pitching. For others it was how to start slow and early yet still have an engaged body ready to make a dynamic move against a very high-speed and challenging pitch speed that would overwhelm them if they weren't ready. Yet others had "old school" problems like a dipping shoulder/upper cut that didn't create a hole vs. soft toss but did against speed. For some we talked about top hand torque and being tight/short to the ball using cues that some here vehemently disagree with lol

I guess this isn't really anything new, but simply a thought that there is a "practical" element even to "technical" hitting work, especially when kids get challenged in the box (which happens at every level and every level step up -- you could argue high level 10U pitching at 35 feet might be the biggest challenge of all). We all know how much mechanics break down when put under pressure of pitch speed and movement. Would be interesting to see more videos here of girls put in that situation and be able learn from how our "analysts" would help them.

Good observation that no amount of tee work and front toss will create the elite batter. However, the pitching machine is fine but in my opinion it doesn't compare to the best drill of all which is facing live pitchers who throw a real softball that spins, has movement, and a change of speeds. I see this problem with my DDs 1st year 14U players. They look very good and aggressive in the cages but faced with above average pitchers in real games, they struggle mightily. IMO, the biggest problem is they do not practice hitting off live pitching nearly enough where they can start timing the pitcher's movements (i.e. "dance with the pitcher") and can adjust to the movement and speed of the ball.

My second point is that by their very nature, pitching machines are flawed for several reasons. First, they do not allow the batter to "dance" with the pitcher's wind-up (even if the ball feeder uses an arm circle before letting the ball drop into the wheel); secondly the speed is the same pitch after pitch after pitch, and doesn't allow for speed variations each and every pitch like one would see in a real at-bat; and third, because most pitching machine use a rotating wheel on the bottom, the pitched ball has perfect 6/12 backspin on it and stays relatively flat throughout the length of the pitch. As we all know from watching slow motion video in the pitching forum, rarely (if ever) does a batter see a pitched ball with true backspin. In fact the vast majority of pitches they will see will have downward and/or side movement (fastball, dropball, curveball, screwball, and change-up) which cannot be replicated with the pitching machines.

Lastly FWIW, you commented that 10U is probably the most difficult age for batters but actually 8U all-stars was by far the most dominate age for pitchers that I have seen. From 30 feet with a 10inch ball, an above average pitcher could absolutely dominate the line-up. I remember DD's decent all-star team facing one pitcher in a tournament that at one point had struckout 28 of our batters in 31 plate appearances over two games. It takes years to really get comfortable with swing mechanics and is always a work in progress.

The bottom-line is that tee work and front toss is fine but most players need to spend more time facing live pitching if you want to be a very good hitter. I have recently toyed with the idea of hiring a pitcher to pitch to my DD in the cages. Hillhouse told a great story here about how he would pitch to one high schooler who ended up playing recently for the University of Oregon. Probably no coincidence that she became a great hitter from all of the live pitching she faced in the cages.

 

[Eric F]

Awesome thread and very timely for DD. One of the most helpful tools she's learned, is how to time the hitter with good sequence. Previously, she, like most of the girls on her team, made the decision to swing based on the pitch. When she learned how to time a pitcher, she was able to think "hit" on every pitch; which begins the sequence regardless of whether she chooses to swing.

When her team built their cage, she rocked because of the slow to load and drove almost every ball!

Yep. I see it time and time again. Young players at low levels of the game, facing slow pitching, have plenty of time to evaluate the location of the pitch before making the decision to start their swing process. As they advance through the sport, and pitching gets faster, their timing gets squeezed. Until they understand that the swing process has to get started on EVERY pitch, they're toast against decent pitching.

 

[RichK]

I agree Rockettech on the flaws of the machine (though our beat-up old Juggs wheel and raggedy balls give more variation then most hitters expect, lol), and the value of hitting live pitching in practice. But there's no tool like a machine and a cage for running a group of hitters through a challenging workout in a reasonable amount of time. Every tool has its place, I think. Tks.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Was traveling for business today, glad to see this drew some interest. FFS, I don't think early and slow is enough. Nor do I necessarily think "sequence" is enough. I just don't. There's the practical application of those ideas under pressure that feels to me like it needs training in and of itself, not in theory but in reality/practice and in particular *under highest-level pressure*....

Not speaking in terms of "in theory", but in terms of "reality".

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I generally agree with moving up in increments, but here's the thing, right?....you don't get to control that in games. You may have a 52 MPH change-of-speed pitcher replaced by a 62 Mph rise ball pitcher and you need to have survival/success skills.

We got all of our hitters hitting 70Mph on Juggs, including those that struggled initially. I'll stick to my earlier contention that there's no holy grail, that there's a point where technical meets the practical and the solutions tend to be very personalized at that point.

Anyway, interesting conversation. Thanks.

You get to move up in increments in a controlled environment.

I was speaking in terms of teaching a hitter how to deal with faster pitching.

I personally don't differentiate between 'technical' and 'practical'. The only reason I use the 'early & slow' approach is because it works ... and from that vantage point I consider it to be 'practical'.

 

[Rocketech1]

I agree Rockettech on the flaws of the machine (though our beat-up old Juggs wheel and raggedy balls give more variation then most hitters expect, lol), and the value of hitting live pitching in practice. But there's no tool like a machine and a cage for running a group of hitters through a challenging workout in a reasonable amount of time. Every tool has its place, I think. Tks.

RickK - yes, the pitching machine has its place, especially if you have a big group but I have seen way too many players killing it in the cages off machines but they look lost once they are facing someone trying to make them look foolish. I actually would argue that front toss from 20 feet is more valuable because you can mix up speeds and locations (I used to throw in change-ups and throw to all corners, even off the plate) things that you really can't do with a pitching machine.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

My use of the pitching machines is fairly minimal. I do believe they are ideal for teaching a hitter the art of 'early & slow'.

 

[Greenmonsters]

A high-level swing is required to have a chance against the best pitching. "Practical" adjustments to flawed swings against top pitching is as productive long-term as putting band-aids on a severed limb. There are no short cuts. A high-level swing with proper sequence is developed outside of games by whatever means and tools you have available. Practice that swing not until you get it right, but until you can't get it wrong, and only then will it carry over to games and give hitters a fighting chance against the best pitchers.