Too much tee/soft toss analysis, not enough analysis of hitters under pressure?

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Sep 17, 2009
1,636
83
No video (or accusation vs. anyone here lol), just a thought and question. All of the tee work and soft toss analysis we see on this site is fine and valuable. But I have a new group of 18U girls this fall and I'm very happy with their ability to both look decent and have good, consistent line drive results off tee and soft toss. But they are struggling with high level pitching -- including straightforward speed (ie, plus or minus 60MPH 18U exposure-level pitching).

We put some of the strugglers in the cage yesterday, cranked Juggs up to 70MPH and went to work. Some swing and missed for the entire first bucket and we had to work very hard individually to find the cues and swing thoughts to help them. While we drew on ideas we often see here when evaluating tee swings, they also each required a lot of thought and work that was more practical then purely technical -- and no single approach worked for every hitter. For some we talked about expanding their out-front soft field of vision vs. very high speed pitching. For others it was how to start slow and early yet still have an engaged body ready to make a dynamic move against a very high-speed and challenging pitch speed that would overwhelm them if they weren't ready. Yet others had "old school" problems like a dipping shoulder/upper cut that didn't create a hole vs. soft toss but did against speed. For some we talked about top hand torque and being tight/short to the ball using cues that some here vehemently disagree with lol :)

I guess this isn't really anything new, but simply a thought that there is a "practical" element even to "technical" hitting work, especially when kids get challenged in the box (which happens at every level and every level step up -- you could argue high level 10U pitching at 35 feet might be the biggest challenge of all). We all know how much mechanics break down when put under pressure of pitch speed and movement. Would be interesting to see more videos here of girls put in that situation and be able learn from how our "analysts" would help them.
 
Jul 16, 2013
4,659
113
Pennsylvania
I agree completely. To me there are several key factors to review in any swing. One of the most important factors is "adjustability". Something that is very difficult to analyze from a tee swing. And can still be difficult from a cage or front toss. Game footage is my preference with my own DD.
 
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Jun 17, 2009
15,036
0
Portland, OR
No video (or accusation vs. anyone here lol), just a thought and question. All of the tee work and soft toss analysis we see on this site is fine and valuable. But I have a new group of 18U girls this fall and I'm very happy with their ability to both look decent and have good, consistent line drive results off tee and soft toss. But they are struggling with high level pitching -- including straightforward speed (ie, plus or minus 60MPH 18U exposure-level pitching).

We put some of the strugglers in the cage yesterday, cranked Juggs up to 70MPH and went to work. Some swing and missed for the entire first bucket and we had to work very hard individually to find the cues and swing thoughts to help them. While we drew on ideas we often see here when evaluating tee swings, they also each required a lot of thought and work that was more practical then purely technical -- and no single approach worked for every hitter. For some we talked about expanding their out-front soft field of vision vs. very high speed pitching. For others it was how to start slow and early yet still have an engaged body ready to make a dynamic move against a very high-speed and challenging pitch speed that would overwhelm them if they weren't ready. Yet others had "old school" problems like a dipping shoulder/upper cut that didn't create a hole vs. soft toss but did against speed. For some we talked about top hand torque and being tight/short to the ball using cues that some here vehemently disagree with lol :)

I guess this isn't really anything new, but simply a thought that there is a "practical" element even to "technical" hitting work, especially when kids get challenged in the box (which happens at every level and every level step up -- you could argue high level 10U pitching at 35 feet might be the biggest challenge of all). We all know how much mechanics break down when put under pressure of pitch speed and movement. Would be interesting to see more videos here of girls put in that situation and be able learn from how our "analysts" would help them.

Rich, I'm not understanding how the "early and slow" was not successful. I understand a hitter's resistance to starting earlier and slower against higher pitch speeds, but once I get a hitter to truly buy in, they find it to be the holy grail to hitting. The only time it doesn't work is when a hitter is not in sequence. If you share the video then I'll comment.
 
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Jan 4, 2012
3,848
38
OH-IO
Here is "HIT EVERYTHING" not sure how fast it is, but I know its MY fastest & @ 25'

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A4nrMd72kT4?rel=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Jun 17, 2009
15,036
0
Portland, OR
PC, I'm going to guess that you and Richk are coming at this from different spectrums/experiences.

The pitching in your demo is not fast. It is roughly 34mph. The hitter is not timing the pitcher, just the ball ... which may be because of the slow pitch speeds ... but in any event, it is building a bad habit that will challenge her against decent pitching. IMO this won't work well outside of rec-level ball. The notion of "swing at anything" isn't something that I'd advocate.

s1rrpi.gif
 
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Jun 17, 2009
15,036
0
Portland, OR
FYI …

When I bring the pitching machine up to 70mph … which by the way has my Jugs machines throwing at 66mph …. I do so in increments.

I do NOT do this with a hitter that is out of sequence, unless I’m trying to drill a point home to them that their swing isn’t going to cut it.

For me … I start with a hitter that is in sequence … I’ll start at a speed that they are more comfortable with … say machine set at 62mph (actual speed 58mph). I’ll have already worked on the “relaxed open focus” and “early and slow” … and I’ll tell them that I’m going to “speed the game up”, and that their job is to “slow the game down” … and that their two tools are a “relaxed open focus” and “early and slow” … and how as the game speeds up they need to trust these tools and simply ‘react’.

I’ll “speed the game up” in 2mph increments. 62 … 64 … 66 … 68 … 70.

With each increment I’ll bark at the hitter to make sure they maintain a good hitting sequence. This is generally what breaks down … and this can often be recovered if you push the hitter to trust being ‘early & slow’.

A hitter needs to successfully "slow the game down" at an increased speed before advancing to the next higher speed increment. Unless they can successfully "slow the game down", they are not allowed to advance.

I'm not shy with my instruction here. I literally find myself shouting.

I’ll bark … “earlier” … “I want earlier!!” … "give me earlier!!!" ... “earlier and slower” … “slower to make up for being earlier” … “never ever ever cheat your load” (i.e., that’s the early and slow weighting of your rear leg in preparation for going forward) … “refuse” … “flat out refuse” … “refuse to be rushed” … “flat out refuse to be rushed” (i.e., being rushed is when you find that you have to take your hands back too quickly because you did not adequately ‘prepare to throw as you went forward’) ... "no pitcher is fast enough to rush us" ... "never cheat your load" ... "never be rushed".

If you stay on top of the girls, you’ll get virtually all of them up to hitting 70mph. Sure, there will be a few hitters that will top out at an earlier speed … but within a few sessions they will be hitting 70mph with no problem. They will find the “holy grail to hitting” … and hitting speed will not be an issue.
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,767
113
Pac NW
Awesome thread and very timely for DD. One of the most helpful tools she's learned, is how to time the hitter with good sequence. Previously, she, like most of the girls on her team, made the decision to swing based on the pitch. When she learned how to time a pitcher, she was able to think "hit" on every pitch; which begins the sequence regardless of whether she chooses to swing.

When her team built their cage, she rocked because of the slow to load and drove almost every ball!
 
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Jun 17, 2009
15,036
0
Portland, OR
That a baby!!

It can take a bit ... but you got to get the ladies to trust going forward to get into a position to hit.

Good hitters do not "stay back" ... they "go forward" ... they "go forward with timing".

Hitters will often initially fight this at the higher pitch speeds. It isn't natural for many of them. You simply need to get them over the hump. A hump that needs to be conquered with each speed increment.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,767
113
Pac NW
That a baby!!

It can take a bit ... but you got to get the ladies to trust going forward to get into a position to hit.

Good hitters do not "stay back" ... they "go forward" ... they "go forward with timing".

Hitters will often initially fight this at the higher pitch speeds. It isn't natural for many of them. You simply need to get them over the hump. A hump that needs to be conquered with each speed increment.

The only frustration I have from stepping down as manager to focus on pitching, is that I have little influence on DD's team--especially hitting. Hoping to help nudge it gently, but don't want to undermine the staff.
 
May 30, 2013
1,442
83
Binghamton, NY
she was able to think "hit" on every pitch; which begins the sequence regardless of whether she chooses to swing.

At the younger age levels (10U, 12U, 14U),
this single distinction to approach is what separates the good hitters from the not so good, with respect to production.
Even at the expense of poor batting mechanics,
the kids who start their sequence at every pitch, looking to hit first and take second (vs the other way around)
are heads and shoulders above their peers in success at the plate.

I've been preaching this all Fall to our players, and will continue to feed it into their heads over the Winter.
Maybe by Spring they will get it...
 

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