Thoughts on front toss - an open posting to all of the HS coaches out there

[DGoggin]

Westwind asked me to start a thread on front toss for BP and other thoughts:

Here goes:

Best advice I ever got was from Gerry Glasco. He said: “never stand 6-8 feet in front of the batter and whip it as fast as you can - worst thing you can do to the hitter”.

Why?

Because hitters don’t want to look bad - they will change their mechanics in order to make contact. And it will screw up their swing faster than you would think. Their swing will go from a proper sequence to an all back all forward swing. And the worst thing is that nobody will know why your DD is no longer getting hits.

This happened to my daughter this HS season. She got into a funk in the preseason and I didn’t figure it out until I took game video and then asked her what she was doing in HS practice. Turns out her well meaning HS coach was pitching a very fast full windup from 6 feet away to help prepare the team for “fast pitching.”

We created a work around and my DD hit much better.

Here is the work around...first I told my DD to ask the coach to slow it down so she could do her load - my DD does a leg kick slow load. Anyway she asked the coach to slow it Down so she could load but the coach didn’t change. Ruined at least 3-4 very good hitters swings - in my opinion.

When talking to the coach didn’t work I told my DD to have two swings - a game swing and a BP swing.

Her game swing was a leg kick slow load. Separation scap load swing. But her BP swing eliminated the kick and stride and simply started at toe touch. The BP swing was actually the same swing - it just started at toe touch (eliminating the leg kick and stride).

This took any urge away from her to rush her load or change her swing to an all back all forward swing in order to get on time with the overly fast windup pitch her coach was pitching.

Immediately after doing this she started hitting the ball well in games and she also hit well off the coaches in practice with her “BP” version of her swing - she just dropped
The heel and hit.

And best of all - it did not screw with her game swing mechanics.

I really wanted to tell her teammates about this, as well, but it wasn’t my place. I did tell one of the girl’s hitting coach though.

Here are my other thoughts on front toss:

Start by showing the ball - point it right at the hitter and then pull it back slowly and then pitch it briskly forward. I like to throw it kind of fast. Not full wind fast (like her HS coach) but no arc whatsoever. The key is to give the batter a trigger as to when to start their load. Do this by showing the ball and telling the hitter to start their load (however they do it) when you start to slowly pull the ball back. This will ensure you don’t screw up their mechanics.

Do 5-10 ball sets. I used to throw a bucket-full - but this is bad as the hitter gets tired and then mechanics break down

Don’t throw everything at one level - work in, out, middle up and down.

Go through a rotation. Work in for 5 pitches - then work out for five pitches then middle for 5 pitches. Then you can mix it up without telling her. From just 6 feet away though you might just want to work a set IN work a set OUT then a set MIDDLE. Why? Because she does not have a lot of time to read the pitch from up close - so be careful here - maybe move back to 10 feet when mixing it up randomly (IN, OUT, MIDDLE).

That’s it for now.

Let me know if you agree or disagree

 

[Cannonball]

First, Gerry and I are friends and his reputation speaks for itself. I love using front toss. In fact, we set up 3 front toss stations for every practice in high school. When you say don't throw a ball as fast as you can, I would say that I ask my feeders to make sure that there isn't an arc on the front toss.

We actually teach our players how to feed front toss. They show the ball out on the side but forward. They take the ball back and then forward to toss. In this way, the load can happen. Like a lot of you, we teach to dance with the pitcher. With the action I describe, it allows the hitter to practice that wrt the feeding of the ball. So, pretty much what you described above.

 

[Westwind]

I love the idea of this thread. I am a front toss junkie and have my thoughts on it but I am going to open my ears before I open my mouth and hopefully up my game a little here!

Question: I throw approx 30 mph max. I use a nice easy motion, try to spin the ball and vary the speed. I vary the distance to approximate the competition a hitter sees so it’s rare when I’m closer than 20’. I try not to throw unrealistic upward or side to side angles but Probably don’t do completely “flat” pitches more than 20% of the time.

I always thought it was good that I was doing a nice easy full pitching motion?

Should I throw more “flat” balls?

What I be doing something different or in addition to what I’m doing?

 

[TexAg1998]

Good stuff, Dan. We both know about HS coaches who make mistakes, don’t we? We use the 3 plate drill at home because it helps DD adjust to different pitch speeds. The challenge it creates for me as the front toss pitcher is to not rush my delivery. She needs to be loaded when I’m at the back of my arm swing much like a real pitcher would be, and I have to be consistent with my pitch velocity so that the distance is the only real variable that affects her timing. The three plates are set at 20, 15, and 10 feet, so nothing as close as what your DD’s HS coach did. The 20 foot distance feels like changeup speed, the 15 foot distance feels “normal” to her, and the 10 foot distance mimics a 65mph pitcher (according to her).

The challenge for you might be how incredibly different our DD’s loads are. As you know, mine doesn’t have the leg kick that yours does but still creates separation. The timing is just different. I think it’s great that you were able to come up with a workaround and that she has the ability to break her swing down into parts and still be successful. As always, I’d be happy to throw to her or your younger DD if you want to “stop by” the house sometime.


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[uncdrew]

Well done DGoggin.

I like how you found a solution so she can keep coach happy, work on her swing, and not mess anything up.

I pitch to the girls from about 25 feet. So way different than 6-8 feet. I can't even imagine being that close to them -- that sounds close enough where I'd know what they had for lunch.


For my 10U girls, I like to do the full windmill pitch, so they can use my motion to help their timing. I also throw them change-ups about 10% of the time. Sometimes I even announce it.

 

[TexAg1998]

I love the idea of this thread. I am a front toss junkie and have my thoughts on it but I am going to open my ears before I open my mouth and hopefully up my game a little here!

Question: I throw approx 30 mph max. I use a nice easy motion, try to spin the ball and vary the speed. I vary the distance according to the competition a hitter sees so it’s rare when I’m closer than 20’. I try not to throw unrealistic upward or side to side angles but Probably don’t do completely “flat” pitches more than 20% of the time.

I always thought it was good that I was doing a full pitching motion? Should I throw more “flat” balls? Should I be doing something different?

I’m not sure that it really matters whether the pitch is full windmill like yours or just a slow drawback and fire like mine. My velocity is about 25-30 also, btw. What I think is most important is that it’s consistent and that the hitter times the ball off the hip. Different pitchers have different windups, and some of them have a lot of extra motion that messes with hitters. The hitters have to adjust to that to be successful, so why wouldn’t they be able to adjust to your delivery vs mine?


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[uncdrew]

I’m not sure that it really matters whether the pitch is full windmill like yours or just a slow drawback and fire like mine. My velocity is about 25-30 also, btw. What I think is most important is that it’s consistent and that the hitter times the ball off the hip. Different pitchers have different windups, and some of them have a lot of extra motion that messes with hitters. The hitters have to adjust to that to be successful, so why wouldn’t they be able to adjust to your delivery vs mine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're probably right, but every single pitcher they face in a game will have the ball over their head at some point.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Westwind asked me to start a thread on front toss for BP and other thoughts:

Here goes:

Best advice I ever got was from Gerry Glasco. He said: “never stand 6-8 feet in front of the batter and whip it as fast as you can - worst thing you can do to the hitter”.

Why?

Because hitters don’t want to look bad - they will change their mechanics in order to make contact. And it will screw up their swing faster than you would think. Their swing will go from a proper sequence to an all back all forward swing. And the worst thing is that nobody will know why your DD is no longer getting hits.

This happened to my daughter this HS season. She got into a funk in the preseason and I didn’t figure it out until I took game video and then asked her what she was doing in HS practice. Turns out her well meaning HS coach was pitching a very fast full windup from 6 feet away to help prepare the team for “fast pitching.”

We created a work around and my DD hit much better.

Here is the work around...first I told my DD to ask the coach to slow it down so she could do her load - my DD does a leg kick slow load. Anyway she asked the coach to slow it Down so she could load but the coach didn’t change. Ruined at least 3-4 very good hitters swings - in my opinion.

When talking to the coach didn’t work I told my DD to have two swings - a game swing and a BP swing.

Her game swing was a leg kick slow load. Separation scap load swing. But her BP swing eliminated the kick and stride and simply started at toe touch. The BP swing was actually the same swing - it just started at toe touch (eliminating the leg kick and stride).

This took any urge away from her to rush her load or change her swing to an all back all forward swing in order to get on time with the overly fast windup pitch her coach was pitching.

Immediately after doing this she started hitting the ball well in games and she also hit well off the coaches in practice with her “BP” version of her swing - she just dropped
The heel and hit.

And best of all - it did not screw with her game swing mechanics.

I really wanted to tell her teammates about this, as well, but it wasn’t my place. I did tell one of the girl’s hitting coach though.

Here are my other thoughts on front toss:

Start by showing the ball - point it right at the hitter and then pull it back slowly and then pitch it briskly forward. I like to throw it kind of fast. Not full wind fast (like her HS coach) but no arc whatsoever. The key is to give the batter a trigger as to when to start their load. Do this by showing the ball and telling the hitter to start their load (however they do it) when you start to slowly pull the ball back. This will ensure you don’t screw up their mechanics.

Do 5-10 ball sets. I used to throw a bucket-full - but this is bad as the hitter gets tired and then mechanics break down

Don’t throw everything at one level - work in, out, middle up and down.

Go through a rotation. Work in for 5 pitches - then work out for five pitches then middle for 5 pitches. Then you can mix it up without telling her. From just 6 feet away though you might just want to work a set IN work a set OUT then a set MIDDLE. Why? Because she does not have a lot of time to read the pitch from up close - so be careful here - maybe move back to 10 feet when mixing it up randomly (IN, OUT, MIDDLE).

That’s it for now.

Let me know if you agree or disagree

Excellent observation and fix. Unfortunately, BP should as closely resemble game scenario as possible so practice can be helpful in improving game performance. Too many coaches develop BP hitters and not game hitters and, IMO, waste the players time with useless drills that doesn't translate into game performance improvement.
I promote pitching from game distance at game speed. Anything from close up at slower speeds results in batters continually being underneath the ball in games. ...good timing, but fouling off on the opposite side or straight back.

 

[erniekru]

I always show the ball and do a 35mph-ish front toss from about 25ft. I would think that 6-8ft is way too close and can mess with the timing of batters as you've seen. I always show the ball and always do a walk through style pitch (no windmill). I never work belt high and middle of the plate, always low outside, low inside, and high (at top of strike zone. To me, this is the best bang for the buck. Simulates pretty real world pitching and I can do 5-6 buckets easy before tiring.

My pitching mechanics are always the same and there are a lot of markers to start load, etc which is crucial. Just my .02

 

[DGoggin]

First, Gerry and I are friends and his reputation speaks for itself. I love using front toss. In fact, we set up 3 front toss stations for every practice in high school. When you say don't throw a ball as fast as you can, I would say that I ask my feeders to make sure that there isn't an arc on the front toss.

We actually teach our players how to feed front toss. They show the ball out on the side but forward. They take the ball back and then forward to toss. In this way, the load can happen. Like a lot of you, we teach to dance with the pitcher. With the action I describe, it allows the hitter to practice that wrt the feeding of the ball. So, pretty much what you described above.

Yes both Gerry and Tara were great coaches for my daughter. So was Englishbey and her current coach Jeff Edwards.

I should add that Gerry and Jeff do a walk up - they set the screen at about 10-12 feet but start about three paces back - they start walking toward the screen and wind up while walking. It is great for the batter because they start their load when the coach starts walking.

This allows the batter to “dance with the pitcher” like you say.