The Other Thread

[JJsqueeze]

So...back to hitting. I've seen conflicting info on the back elbow position at the beginning of the swing. I need to keep this simple right now. DD has team practice/games/pitching practice every day except today and Sunday so I have to get this thing reworked efficiently. Her back elbow really folds under and in front of the hands right now. I had started to teach her to get the feel of not letting that rear elbow past the hands but now I don't know if this is an absolute.

I think it is, because if the swing starts from the ground up then by the time she is uncoiling then the torso should have turned just enough so that the elbow is even or slightly behind the hands and from this position it can't lead. We are also concentrating on a feeling of the hands and barrel getting to the desired swing plane right after the rear hip starts to fire as opposed to right before. Right now her sequence is to load, drop the barrel, then swing with bad bat drag.



I am breaking this into three parts.

1) Loading with rocking the U and coiling back while moving forward.
2)using the rear leg pushing and turning to initiate the hip and then shoulder
3) Once 2 has started, immediately bringing the bat to the desired plane while turning the corner.

ALL we are doing right now is trying to correct that initial bat path. I just want to do it with the sequence reasonably intact so we don't get a push swing, but I am not emphasizing the subtleties of the sequence until the bat path is corrected.

sound reasonable?

 

[Eric F]

Without video, there's a lot of information missing, but from the one frame, I'm seeing some things that were happening with my DD's swing.

Getting the lower body working right is the first step. For my DD, the "walk-through" and "kick" drills were the keys. Learning balance, how to stride, and firing the right hip forward (hard!) were the product. The lower body working right is the foundation for the upper body working right.

We're still working on my DD's hands, but the drop-the-bat-and-swing pattern was very prevalent. We're on a road to learning how to "turn the barrel", but it's talking quite a while to re-program her. The front straight arm is a major contributor to the flat swing. One of the keys we used is to "show the triangle to the pitcher". The corners of the triangle are elbow-elbow-hands. In ready position, the triangle is vertical and facing the opposite batters box. At contact, the triangle rotates and faces the pitcher. If the lead arm goes straight early in the swing, the triangle breaks down. This may help to visualize the triangle...

Pay attention to the rotation of the hips, the tilt of the shoulders, and the location of the rear elbow in relation to the hip as the hip comes forward. Without all those pieces being in place at the right time, you get bat drag and a pushy swing.

I hope some of this is helpful...

 

[JJsqueeze]

thanks Eric. it was helpful. I have a sense of what we are trying to accomplish, I am just not sure of the teaching technique. Meaning should we start from the ground up or try to fix specific things while keeping the rest intact? I am trying to change a tire while the car is moving here and I don't want to mess her up too much in games while we do the fixes.

 

[Eric F]

If you're doing a major renovation all at once, you're going to see a period of struggle until the new movements build into habits. The thing is, all the parts work together. For me, we were able to reprogram my DD's lower body before we started messing with her upper body. A powerful and proper movement of the lower body will add power to even a draggy flat swing.

 

[bullethead]

thanks Eric. it was helpful. I have a sense of what we are trying to accomplish, I am just not sure of the teaching technique. Meaning should we start from the ground up or try to fix specific things while keeping the rest intact? I am trying to change a tire while the car is moving here and I don't want to mess her up too much in games while we do the fixes.

Learn to coil properly via noon times explanation first. If its done correctly many other items will be addressed as well

 

[softballphreak]

So...back to hitting. I've seen conflicting info on the back elbow position at the beginning of the swing. I need to keep this simple right now. DD has team practice/games/pitching practice every day except today and Sunday so I have to get this thing reworked efficiently. Her back elbow really folds under and in front of the hands right now. I had started to teach her to get the feel of not letting that rear elbow past the hands but now I don't know if this is an absolute.

I think it is, because if the swing starts from the ground up then by the time she is uncoiling then the torso should have turned just enough so that the elbow is even or slightly behind the hands and from this position it can't lead. We are also concentrating on a feeling of the hands and barrel getting to the desired swing plane right after the rear hip starts to fire as opposed to right before. Right now her sequence is to load, drop the barrel, then swing with bad bat drag.

View attachment 4634

I am breaking this into three parts.

1) Loading with rocking the U and coiling back while moving forward.
2)using the rear leg pushing and turning to initiate the hip and then shoulder
3) Once 2 has started, immediately bringing the bat to the desired plane while turning the corner.

ALL we are doing right now is trying to correct that initial bat path. I just want to do it with the sequence reasonably intact so we don't get a push swing, but I am not emphasizing the subtleties of the sequence until the bat path is corrected.

sound reasonable?

You've got the right plan, IMO. Once she leads with the hip, while the hands stay in launch position, I believe you will see the elbow in a much better position during her swing.

As soon as the rear foot/leg starts, the hip instantly takes over, effectively pulling the rear foot—not the rear foot pushing the hip. The rear foot will end up on the toe of the shoe at contact.

 

[bullethead]

Have any of you espousing this fix aand that fix actually done noon times coil as detailed on BBD The thing about these forums is you can easily tell who gets up and actually swings a bat. It's a must IMHO if you want to instruct your kid yourself. Coil per his description and see what naturally happens to your hands, your front shoulder, your front leg etc. or you can keep fixing this and that.....
If that's too complicated go grab a bale of hay and toss in the back of your truck...

 

[JJsqueeze]

Have any of you espousing this fix aand that fix actually done noon times coil as detailed on BBD The thing about these forums is you can easily tell who gets up and actually swings a bat. It's a must IMHO if you want to instruct your kid yourself. Coil per his description and see what naturally happens to your hands, your front shoulder, your front leg etc. or you can keep fixing this and that.....
If that's too complicated go grab a bale of hay and toss in the back of your truck...

Not exactly sure what your point is? Don't worry about the elbow crossing under? or look at the swing as a whole and not dice it up too much? I can conceptualize and feel the swing components a lot better than my kids can. But for them I need to be able to break things into parts they can understand, and focus on cues and results they can measure. I don't know about other people but I don't ask my kids to do anything that I haven't tried first, then seen the value in and made it fit my understanding. Otherwise I won't be able to help her if I can't do it and explain why it is important. I also throw away most of the stuff I read either because it doesn't pass the feel test, the BS test or basic physics.

as an update- we had our first hitting workout with a machine after some basic swing work on this issue. She dropped and dragged about 8/10 swings but every once in a while I could see her pause, and then come in with a gem of a swing, nice coil, lower body working it nicely and elbow not collapsing. These balls got DRILLED (fortunately). On one of them I SAW her thinking it through before swinging. The swing was beautiful. she came out and I asked her to tell me what went through her head before the last swing and she said "Coil back while going forward" and I said...I could tell. I also asked her to look at other girls' swings and tell me who had the same issues we are trying to fix and she could point out the correct girls. So she is on the right path, she can identify it, she's starting to feel it and she is getting used to being able to correct it. The girl learns so friggin fast it is scary.

 

[mann]

Have any of you espousing this fix aand that fix actually done noon times coil as detailed on BBD The thing about these forums is you can easily tell who gets up and actually swings a bat. It's a must IMHO if you want to instruct your kid yourself. Coil per his description and see what naturally happens to your hands, your front shoulder, your front leg etc. or you can keep fixing this and that.....
If that's too complicated go grab a bale of hay and toss in the back of your truck...

I agree that coil is a great, way to start. Lower end first.

I also believe that all can be great at the beginning of the swing, and have a horrible finish.

The hips can be good but the hands not so much.

You can have great hands, but no lower end.

There is no magic cure, or complete understanding, you might think so for a bit, then wHAMO, a hitting instructor school bus hits you, right where it hurts.

 

[bullethead]

Sounds like you get or are getting my point. Mann on the other hand continues to befuddle me. Lol. My point is that first and foremost you need to get in the correct pattern like tewks advocates. Second, the most useful piece of advice I have found in regard to making that happen is noons coil description. After you get that down, you may have to clean up the hand action. Trying to address hand issues is kind of silly if they are not in the right place at the right time according to the overall pattern