strikeouts or putting the ball in play--the mental appraoch

[Cannonball]

BM, I think that everyone wants a K. The difference then is our "want to" versus or "can do." For example, with a runner on 1st, sure I'd like the K in a bunting situation. However, I'D REALLY LIKE A POPUP. So my dd throws a rise or FB up and in to get the popup. This can then translate into an opportunity for two as well as helping my catcher defend a steal situation. For my dd who has always played "up," getting the K was not always feisiable. However, being a pitcher and able to locate and then knowing how to pitch enables her to compete.

BTW, I think that the ability of a pitcher to understand how to pitch "backwards" is key to their development. By "backwards" I mean knowing what the hitter is looking for and then being able to use that against them. For example as I cited earlier, when it is 2-0, most hitters are thinking dead red. So, changeup. Time and time again, we have gotten popups. I've coached baseball for a long time and admit softball and baseball are different. However, I've had more than my fair share of young men who couldn't break a pane of glass who have whon 10 games in a high school season. At no time did we ever throw the FB for a strike and we had to throw to contact. JMHO!

 

[BoardMember]

.......However, if you have a low-ball/location/movement pitcher and the other team has decent hitters, then you need to recognize that the ball is going to get put in play, and not go crazy trying to get the K's. If you do, you end up having your pitcher throw away from her strength, and bad things can happen. For those pitchers, you look to throw your best pitches, and if you get an 0-2 count, then you try to get them to chase for the K.

I guess I'm still not following........When is it that you aren't trying to make a hitter miss?

I would say early in the game, ground balls or pop-ups look just as good to me as K's. Obviously there are situations in a game where you want a K (many you just mentioned). However, in some of those situations (runner at 3B w/no outs) you may be looking at a sac bunt situation anyway.

So with a runner on 3rd and no outs you want to hit the sac bunters bat?

Going back to my earlier post, if Tommy John or Mike Mussina went into a game looking to strike everyone out, I don't think they would have been anywhere near as successful as they were.

It's a pitchers job to make the hitter miss.......Doesn't always happen of course........Sometimes less then others......

Saying a pitcher that is trying to make a hitter hit it "less solid" is NOT trying to make a hitter miss, is just arguing for the sake of arguing IMO......

 

[BoardMember]

BM, I think that everyone wants a K.........

Then you have no argument with Hal.........or me.......

All he said was the pitchers mind set SHOULD be that she BELIEVES she has the confidence/ability to make a hitter miss......And that SHOULD be the goal......

In rec ball and sometimes in high school, where you are limited to the "group who signs up" you may have a different senario......But in travel ball, I want the kid who has the confidence to BELIEVE they can make a hitter miss, whether they can or not.......

People seem to be aruing that because this may not be reality based on the hitters ability, a pitcher should NOT be trying to make a hitter miss.......

 

[ctfastpitch]

BM...when I re-read my post, it might have come across like I was taking a shot at you. Wasn't my intent, and my apologies if it came across that way. But I do have a couple thought on your comments..

I guess I'm still not following........When is it that you aren't trying to make a hitter miss?

I guess it depends on what you consider a "miss". If you consider a weak grounder to 2B or a popped up bunt attempt a "miss" then a pitcher is always trying for that.

So with a runner on 3rd and no outs you want to hit the sac bunters bat?

In some respects, the answer is yes. I figure that most decent players will get the bat on the ball if it is a strike, so what I would like to see is a couple foul balls or better yet a pop-up.

It's a pitchers job to make the hitter miss.......Doesn't always happen of course........Sometimes less then others......

I think it's the pitcher's job to get the batter to make an out. The situation might dictate that a certain kind of out is preferable, and the pitcher should be able to respond to the situation.

Saying a pitcher that is trying to make a hitter hit it "less solid" is NOT trying to make a hitter miss, is just arguing for the sake of arguing IMO......

I think we are agreeing on this (again depending on what you consider a "miss"). I think we all like K's, but the gist of this thread was that all pitchers should come in with an expectation that they will strike everyone out. I rather have them working to get everyone out and have their particular pitching strengths and the situation determine how she gets them. I just don't want a good "ground ball" pitcher to feel she is not successful if she doesn't get 12 K's a game, or worse change her pitching approach to try for more K's.

 

[batsics1]

ctfastpitch, does this describe Osterman, “However, if you have a low-ball/location/movement pitcher and the other team has decent hitters, then you need to recognize that the ball is going to get put in play, and not go crazy trying to get the K's”?

Osterman is a low-ball/location/movement pitcher. Do you think she accepts the ball is going to be put in play? Do you think she became one of the best with that mentality? I doubt it. She may not have ever thought about striking every batter out, but my guess is she throws every pitch with the intent of it being a strike – a swing and a miss, called or fouled off – regardless of whether she throws in the zone or out of the zone. Osterman is an elite talent, but if she accepted ctfastpitch’s mentality would she be as successful and have racked up as many K’s? My guess is she hates it when a batter puts the ball in play, accepts it when it produces an out, and constantly works on ways to keep that from happening again. IOW, she is trying to figure out how to strike them all out.

JC Heir wrote, “That has just got to be one of the craziest approaches I can think of. For one thing, on a 3-0 count, whether a pitcher admits it or not, usually caution goes out the window & they are just trying to groove one to get back in the battle, hoping the batter is going to take a pitch. If you are a pitcher with an 0-2 count & you decide its time to have a 3-0 mentality, you are in big trouble.”

This is too literal an interpretation; a 3-0 mentality is about the rest of the at-bat. It is about making every pitch count. What happens if the hitter has the green light? A grooved pitch may produce an out or it may end up in the parking lot. In the end, hoping a batter does something is exactly what we don’t want a pitcher thinking. If a pitcher’s 3-0 mentality is groove and hope what is her 0-2 mentality? Waste one out of the zone, no big deal. Maybe waste another one and hope she swings? Now its 2-2 and she has to throw a decent pitch because she doesn’t want to go to a full count. The first two pitches are safe, the pitcher can take a little break because she is wasting pitches and maybe the batter will do something stupid.

At 2-2 she has to refocus and pitch for real. The batter knows she is going to be near the zone and she knows she has to swing at anything close. But she was going to swing at anything close the previous two pitches. What was accomplished? Why not make a decent pitch on 0-2? Better yet, why not throw your best, most deceptive, pitch just off the plate and be done with it?

In softball there are only two ways to lose: free passes and balls put in play because you can’t score if no one gets on base. A pitchers mentality from the first arm circle forward should be to figure out how to limit both. Learning to never hope a batter will do something and never waste a pitch is a step in the right direction. A pitchers mentality includes everything from practice to the final pitch. The strategy for sequencing an at-bat is a different matter. Part of a pitcher’s mentality is to know the purpose of each pitch in a sequence and to focus on throwing the best pitch for the purpose. And to constantly strive to make the batter do the wrong thing – look at strikes and swing at balls.

 

[Hillhouse]

I think there's a very big difference between a pitcher having the confidence to get strikeouts when needed and attempting to do it every pitch. Every pitcher should have the confidence to say "Ok, this person is a good drop ball hitter... but lets see you hit MY drop ball". However, we need to balance that with not pitching to a hitter's strength. As I've said before, 21 outs is 21 outs... regardless. I'm not going to challenge the world's best hitter on arrogance. These days, the advantages go to hitters. Polycore balls, high tech bats, better training in learning how to hit, etc.

Hal, FPCoach played with and against some of the best teams in the country, I can vouch for that 100%. Including Ty Stofflet and others. I would suggest people on this forum look up the book, Lefty Legend. I can provide the ISBN if people are interested. Ty is the greatest pitcher of all time, considered by many.

Bill

 

[ctfastpitch]

ctfastpitch, does this describe Osterman, “However, if you have a low-ball/location/movement pitcher and the other team has decent hitters, then you need to recognize that the ball is going to get put in play, and not go crazy trying to get the K's”?

Osterman is a low-ball/location/movement pitcher. Do you think she accepts the ball is going to be put in play? Do you think she became one of the best with that mentality? I doubt it. She may not have ever thought about striking every batter out, but my guess is she throws every pitch with the intent of it being a strike – a swing and a miss, called or fouled off – regardless of whether she throws in the zone or out of the zone. Osterman is an elite talent, but if she accepted ctfastpitch’s mentality would she be as successful and have racked up as many K’s? My guess is she hates it when a batter puts the ball in play, accepts it when it produces an out, and constantly works on ways to keep that from happening again. IOW, she is trying to figure out how to strike them all out.

I don't disagree about Osterman, but I think she is a rare talent at an elite level of the sport. In my view, she is a strikeout pitcher and it makes sense for her to approach her game with that attitude. But while she is definitely someone kids should aspire to, you can't say her approach should apply to every pitcher in America. If you have a 14-16 yo that gets a lot of ground ball outs (and might have a decent D II college career in front of her), and you tell her that she needs to get more K's, now she starts to overthrow, her movement pitches start to flatten out, and she starts getting lit up with line drives. I would say you have done her a disservice.

Nothing applies 100% to everyone and every situation.

Having said that, I think Strike Out pitchers have advantages in a number of game situations, and I would guess most D I coaches are looking for K's in kids they recruit. I just don't think you should make a kid feel inadequate if she is not getting what you think is the right number of K's per game.

 

[halskinner]

I think there's a very big difference between a pitcher having the confidence to get strikeouts when needed and attempting to do it every pitch. Every pitcher should have the confidence to say "Ok, this person is a good drop ball hitter... but lets see you hit MY drop ball". However, we need to balance that with not pitching to a hitter's strength. As I've said before, 21 outs is 21 outs... regardless. I'm not going to challenge the world's best hitter on arrogance. These days, the advantages go to hitters. Polycore balls, high tech bats, better training in learning how to hit, etc.

Hal, FPCoach played with and against some of the best teams in the country, I can vouch for that 100%. Including Ty Stofflet and others. I would suggest people on this forum look up the book, Lefty Legend. I can provide the ISBN if people are interested. Ty is the greatest pitcher of all time, considered by many.

Bill

Is CoachFP Ty Stofflet? Surely that is not what you are saying?

My team played in tournies against D'Arcy, another HOF'er. I can only assume CoachFP must consider him a slime for playing in such a low level like A-division?

 

[CoachFP]

Chuck D'Arcy was a great pitcher and I saw him pitch several times. I don't know what you are talking about him playing A-Division. You are making this stuff up. He was a major pitcher for Guannella Brothers for many many years. I want to post a quote here from Michael White regarding his approach to pitching: "I tried to keep the ball low and keep it in the yard to give my infield a chance to play. That’s my strength.” Amateur Softball Association of America (ASA) Now Michael White is a Hall of Fame caliber pitcher and he does not mention strikeouts. So who do I listen to, a guy who wins an A tournament or a guy who has won it all at the highest levels? You should also listen to Bill Hillhouse who pitched for the USA Men's team and has had to battle some of the best hitters in the world. While he can strike them out, it would not be to his or any pitcher's advantage to go after the strikeout with these kinds of hitters. By the way I had the opportunity to play with and against Ty for many years. Never really heard him run around talking about strikeouts. He liked getting people out.

 

[halskinner]

" don't know what you are talking about him playing A-Division. You are making this stuff up."

No, I am not. He played as a pick up player for a few teams, as I was told. The last time I saw him was 1979 at an 'A' tournament in Stockton, CA. There were several 'A-Open' rated pitchers in NorCal that were competing in 'A' division tournies. Most were in their 40's at the time, some in their late 40's. Two of those old timers were pitchers on MY team.

Additional. I grew up in the Hayward Softball leagues. Went to tournaments all over the Bay Area and was very familiar with Guanella Bros.