Shoulders Tied to Swing

[Slapper23]

Skep, you assume too much. I don't know the answer to your question, but then again, I don't need to. Because when I work with hitters, I'm either going to teach them to rotate the shoulders like hell while hanging onto the bat to bring the bat around or I'm not.

As I stated before, this is one way of doing it, and one preferred by the "PCR approach." I prefer to teach another way and one I see ML hitters doing...and talking about. Yeah, the arms are attached to the shoulders and the shoulders have to be involved in arm movement, but this is far, far different than simply gripping the bat, holding on, and using the shoulders to turn like hell...effectively taking active hand/arm involvement from the swing. This isn't the way ML hitters do it and is not the way I teach it.

If you or anyone else prefer the opposite approach, I'm sure you have thought it out, tried it on your students or players, and are happy with what you see. Good for you.

Mike

 

[tom.guerry]

skep-

I am answering your question, but the answer does not satisfy you becasue it is based on a different model/pattern of the swing which is not compatible with the way you see it. It therefore remains apples and oranges to you.

Your primary question at this point seems to be:

Can the elbows move in any way without the shoulders precipitating the move?

First lets not try to define exactly what "precipitating" means.

Lets just look at what moves when.

I tink of the swing much like the Nyman two armed model links that I posted.

The torso and shoulders are fused in this mechanical model.

The arms are a single lever, not an upper arm, elbow, forearm.

Still, when the lead arm is rigidly connected to the torso mass, a reasonable model of the swing is produced.

When the back arm is attached, the swing is quickened by torque produced by the mass of the back arm given the integrity of the structure being maintained.

So when you look at what REAL MLB pattern swings, you see the hands and elbows move BEFORE the shoulders.

Then at the next level of detail, to apply this info to the actual human skeleton, I describe the joint motions that do this.

So when you load for either throw or hit, you FIRST break the hands with internal rotation and aBduction.

Now you could say before this that you got sideways which included the shoulders moving in space, but that is not very useful in teaching how to throw or swing

After hands break, then BACK shoulder scap pinches as back arm continues to lift (Nyman cue "lift and pinch").

 

[tom.guerry]

more specifically, skep, the MLB pattern harnesses the torquing forces perpendicular to the handle to control/quicken the swing and get it started spatially early so you have early batspeed/lateadjustment.

This simulation shows how the back arm/top hand are necessary to do this:



Now, in addition to converting the model from a software simulation to human situation by describing the kinesiological skeletal sequence, remember the body can alos work out of the 2D plane the model is simplified to.

So unlike the model, the bat starts turning BEFORE the torso does and there is a large range of motion to do this that is out/above plane.

Thsi creates resistance for beter and better controlled loading and for beter timed firing of the bathead which has a running start.

The hands are moving BEFORE the shoulders move via arm and forearm action.

What is your next question ?

 

[skeptic]

I am answering your question, but the answer does not satisfy you becasue it is based on a different model/pattern of the swing which is not compatible with the way you see it. It therefore remains apples and oranges to you.

No, you're not answering.

My question is NOT based on a swing model.

It is based on biology.

And I think you're not answering because the answer would make you either change YOUR swing model, or change the way you describe your swing model.

You're apparently not willing to do either, and would rather just base your foundation on biology you KNOW to be flawed.

So when you look at what REAL MLB pattern swings, you see the hands and elbows move BEFORE the shoulders.

I can not accept the premise. Because on at least some swngs, I see something different. And because it is meaningless. Whether or not I SEE the shoulder move does not define whether or not it is (internally) moving - rotating in any of the planes in which that uniue joint can rotate. I can't see the neurons in the brain fire, either, but that's what happens first of all. And there is NO WAY the hands, ams, elbows - singly or together - can move without the shoulder first moving. Whether overtly or subtlely, whether visibly or not, it happpens.



As for the way I "see" the swing, you may be surprised. I don't know, I can only guess your assumptions.

I AM willing to share it, for whatever interest there may be. However, I am NOT willing to share it if you won't at least concede the biology in an area where you SHOULD be a subject matter expert. Namely medicine, where you actually DO work with people.

So unlike the model, the bat starts turning BEFORE the torso does and there is a large range of motion to do this that is out/above plane.

Since my question was about the shoulders (not the torso), is your response:

1) irrelevant

2) reflective of a belief that the shoulders are part of the torso?

The hands are moving BEFORE the shoulders move via arm and forearm action.

Just want to make sure that I understand you here. As an M.D., you are stating that the hands, arm, and forearm can move BEFORE the shoulder moves? Or just before you can see it move?

Now, in addition to converting the model from a software simulation to human situation by describing the kinesiological skeletal sequence, remember the body can alos work out of the 2D plane the model is simplified to.

An entirely nonsensical leap.

Kineseolgy isn't just about the skeleton.

Who knows if a software simulation can be converted to a human body scenario?

The body CAN NOT "work out" of a 2D plane. Because it doesn't exist in one.

Nice try on the segueway. But this is a statement that sounds good, until you actually read it. It ISN'T good though, and it isn't true.

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic, you are making this way to hard. the way I am desribing it is hard and detailed enough, but it does not require getting into the details of muscle action. There is some improtant stuff like stretch receptor reflex and soft tissue stiffness/tension related to elastic properties that blend with muscular force generation to efficiently produce the kinteic link/summation/wha candrea and Enquist emphasize as "addition". That is a separate principle which is best described in golf as "x-factor stretch" and what Nyman calls "cusp".

That is important in effcientlyunloading a well loaded and dierected torso.

As we go more distally, it really becomes a matter of the seqeunce of the shoulders/arms/forearms/bat as levers. which is what I amdescribing.

As i said, the nonhuman mechanical model fuses the torso and scaps as a single turning mass to power the swing.

In the actual human MLB situation, the important thing to realize is that the shoulders/scaps are slaved to moving the hands/bat to resist turning to stretch the torso for better loading.

The shoulders are not directly turning but resisting the torso in turning with the hips while they work to increase early bathead aceleration, then connect to the torso as the bathead fires.
The bat turns first as the hips turn. This is coordinated/well timed by the arm action snching with the leg action (as with synched external rotation of back arm and front leg, just as in throwing overhand).

The shoulders stay still between the two. The bat moves before the shoulders.

The hands and arms are moving the bat.

Maybe some others can describe the feel and that will lead to progress understanding te MLB pattern.