Rule question Fastpitch Little league world series

[Shlsjoe]

Just curious, did anyone happen to catch play this past weekend at Little league softball world series?

Runners at 2B & 3B, batter grounds out and is called out at 1B on a very close play. Play is so close runner doesn't realize she was called out and continues on to 2B. Catcher sees runner advancing to 2B and throws down at which point the runner who was already called out at 1B is called out again. During this time the runner that was originally at 2B advances home on the catchers throw to 2B.

After lengthy discussion, umpire sends runner who scored on catchers throw to 2B back to 3B and the girl that was originally out at 1B is obviously called out.

I believe it was Puerto Rico who was up to bat, protested claiming although the runner was already out, the catcher still threw down on a live play therefore run should have scored.

I don't know what rules they play under, but out of curiosity what rule would be in play if under ASA?

Without further investigation I guess my thoughts would be runner scores and should not be sent back. Ball is still live, unless they are considering it some sort of interference by the runner?

Just looking for an open discussion and your thoughts.


Thoughts?

 

[Comp]

It was Florida that was at bat, Puerto Rico coach is the one that protested. From what I have been told, LL operates under their own rule set which is closer to baseball than softball. The initial call of nothing, run scores was correct under LL rules. Who ever ruled on the protest and put the runner back was actually wrong, the play should have stood.

Now, under ASA and FED rules, a retired runner who continues to run and draws a throw is guilty of interference and the runner closest to home is declared out.

 

[BretMan]

I'll disagree just a little bit and note that ASA and FED rules say a retired runner continuing to run and drawing a throw MAY be considered as a form of interference. The act of running, alone and of itself, isn't automatically interference. But once that act draws a throw, the umpires have some discretion in calling interference or not.

There are plays where a runner is retired and may continue further before realizing they're out, or where they don't realize they're out because the umpire signaling it is behind them, or they're out, but can't reasonably be expected to instantly vanish from the basepaths. There are plays where the defense should be reasonably expected to realize the runner was out and thus not be expected to play upon her. Umpires MAY take all those factors into consideration and MAY call interference if they think it's warranted.

They also need to ask themselves if the retired runner's actions prevented the defense from making a play on another runner. If the retired runner continues running, and the defense makes a throw on her, but there was no reasonable chance for the defense to make a play against another runner, then it shouldn't be interference. I think that is why the rule is written that the umpires MAY call interference on these plays. The rule doesn't say they must. This leaves the call somewhat up to the umpire's discretion and judgment, depending on all the factors surrounding the play. Generally, an act doesn't become interference until something is actually interfered with.

I'll also have to throw in this disclaimer: I have never umpired a Little League game and have never seen one of their rule books. Maybe they have some odd rule or interpretation that is different from the rest of the softball world that I'm not aware of. This play is being discussed on a few other forums and I'm hoping someone will be able to post the actual LL rule.

But, speaking ASA and FED, a retired runner continuing to run the bases and drawing a throw may be ruled as interference. If it is, then the penalty is that the ball is dead and the runner closest to home at the time of the interference is called out.

What confuses me about the call in the LL game is this: Assuming their rules allow interference to be called here (and it was), then what is their penalty? Is it put that runner back on third base or is it call her out?

 

[wild man]

I have done quite a few LL games , Now I did not see the game and play in question. But from what is described the run should score, PROVIDED that the play was not called dead, Witch is what I usually do in such cases,HOWEVER when I call someone out EVERYONE on three or four fields will know it.

And to answer the other question YES Interference CAN be called in such a situation in LL, But since I did not see the play I cant really make a judgement on that side of it.
There is this to consider the runner was out, In LL there is nothing that says she must leave right away As in VANISH
But is left up to the descretion of the Umpire. I try to cover these things in my pregame meeting.
The rules Do say that a runner " May not interfere" with a play. Or" cause a distraction ".
Without seeing it it is hard to say.
IF interference were to be called I believe it would be Runner on Second out runner on third stays at third.

 

[dpett]

Ridiculous that 6 umpires can't get it right. I think the correct call should have been batter out at 1st. Batter out again for interfering in the play. You can't have runners running the bases when they have been called out. The 1st base umpire blew the call by net yelling out. He did clearly signal out with his arms though the runner was past him and not looking. The most annoying thing in LL is putting a kid at 1st base coach instead of an adult.

 

[BretMan]

Ridiculous that 6 umpires can't get it right. I think the correct call should have been batter out at 1st. Batter out again for interfering in the play. You can't have runners running the bases when they have been called out. The 1st base umpire blew the call by net yelling out. He did clearly signal out with his arms though the runner was past him and not looking. The most annoying thing in LL is putting a kid at 1st base coach instead of an adult.

Back up there. You can't call two outs on the same runner! There's no way, no how, that is allowed under any rule.

That's the reason there are completely different rules covering interference by a runner and a retired runner. An active runner who has net yet been put out is out if they interfere. When an already retired runner interferes, somebody else gets called out. That "somebody" is the runner closest to home in every rule set I'm familiar with.

But I will agree that the first base umpire's weak signal of the out and the fact that the first base coach was a kid may have contributed to teh confusion on this play.

 

[Shlsjoe]

Thanks for the input and thoughts on my question. Can always count on insightful input and debate on this site which is why this is where I will always go first.

Thanks guys.

Shlsjoe

 

[jinjet95]

I'm confused. If the runner was called out at 1st, how did the catcher get the ball to throw down to 2nd?

 

[Comp]

There were runners on 2nd and 3rd. As I recall, ball was hit to short, she checked runner at 3, threw batter out at 1st. Runner at 3 broke for home on the throw to 1st, 1st threw home to try and cut down runner. Batter who had been thrown out now takes off for 2nd, catcher throws to 2nd to get batter who has already been called out at 1st and runner that had advanced to 3rd now scores.