Re-Plant, 2nd Push, what do college coaches think about this?

[STRIKE3]

Long time listener, first time thread starter so here it goes and don't torch me too bad.....

First, the information I have found on this site over the last few years has been incredible, extremely helpful and more than entertaining at times

Second and to the point.... I am still struggle with the re-plant 2nd push that pitchers use these days. I am not here to argue that it may or may not increase speed. IT DOES! And if it doesn't then it is like moving the rubber a few feet forward to start so regardless, there IS a clear advantage.

The problem is the umpires seldom call it. I think there was a video link in another thread titled "2nd push" where the lady had Hannah Rogers in the video and the lady talked about getting a "second" push but never really showed how it works full speed. I have read Drive Mechanics at least a million times (thanks Java!) as well as hundreds of other posts by the experts here and can't find anyone saying you should do a replant and 2nd push. I am confident the reason why is because it is ILLEGAL.

My daughter will be entering high school in 2016 and I asked our HS coach his thoughts. He clearly knew it was illegal but he told me he has yet to see it called. I have been watching fall league in our local city and several of the girls throw with amazing speed but they also replant and 2nd push. It is so obvious it makes me sick because I can't make myself ask my daughter to do it. Actually, that is not true. We did do it for about a week and her speed did increase once she got it down but we quickly got back on the legal track.

So...what are people's thoughts on this and what is a legal pitcher to do when they are competing against a replanter who has more speed. I state that I don't need to hear the speed isn't everything speech, I have heard it and completely agree. However, I do believe you should max out your speed while focusing on a few solid pitches and spots. We all know speed isn't everything but we certainly agree we want our DD's throwing as fast as their bodies allow.

Finally, has anyone had solid conversations with college coaches on this? What do they think? Do they look past a replanter who may throw faster and focus on a girl who pitches legally although a bit slower? Again, just want to focus on the replant question. I know college coaches are looking for a few good pitches, spots, and a number of other things but what do they think about the replanter?

Thanks for your help and thoughts and sorry for the lengthy post!

 

[Rocketech1]

A lot of false assumptions and misinformation that I will try to clarify but "replanting" is actually less efficient than leap and drag.

First off, the replant you are talking about is not allowing the pitchers stride foot (front foot) to get closer to the batter after the initial stride foot touches down so it's not an advantage in that regards. Yes, the men's game allows a replant and they often can stride far outside the pitching circle because they don't touch down the stride foot until well after the second push with the pivot foot. I have never seen the girls/women do this second push off with the pivot foot in an attempt to get the stride foot closer to home plate. Just never have seen it.

Secondly, to be an efficient pitcher you want all of your stored energy (momentum) going forward against a strong front side resistance (i.e. against the front planted stride foot). Any effort to bear weight on the pivot foot (replant foot) has just diverted some of the stored energy from the drive, to the back leg and back foot instead of the front side. Sluggers uses an example of a brick in the back seat of the car, when you slam on the brakes, the stored energy in the brick propels it quickly so that it is launched through the front windshield. Now let's say instead of slamming on the brakes, you tap on them a little, the brick moves a little forward and then you slam on the brakes. The brick falls into the front seat but not through the windshield because some of the stored energy was already released from the brick because you tapped on the brakes (replanted).

Third, I would not teach your DD to replant because it's not only illegal but more importantly it's less efficient than leap and dragging into a firm front side.

Fourth, while drive mechanics are important, most pitchers get their velocity and good speed from excellent IR arm whip mechanics and brush interference. It's one of the reasons the "sling shot" pitchers can generate a tremendous amount of arm whip and velocity without ever leap and dragging. Girls can "leap" and "replant"'all they want but the pitcher that understands and uses internal rotation and brush interference are the ones that will be pitching for a long time to come.

To summarize, if you see your DDs fellow competitors replanting, you should crack a smile because your DDs mechanics are likely much more efficient and effective than these other pitchers mechanics. No need to sweat about it and make excuses for your DDs pitching performance. If her competitors are pitching faster than your DD its "in spite of" their replanting not "because" of it.

 

[JJsqueeze]

I dunno RT. your argument makes sense in a way but the brick analogy doesn't hold for me. I think a more appropriate analogy to a crow hop would be to tap the gas pedal right before the brakes. Replanting gives you a boost of power into the front side. I think there are two very practical points here.

The first is the men's game. If the replant wasn't a power adder then why do so may men's pitchers do it? The second is the over hand outfield throw. If it didn't add power then why do we all naturally do it on throws from 200 feet away?

maybe some of our men's FP former players could chime in on it with their first hand experience.

As for teaching a kid to do it. I personally think the rules will change within the next 5 years so I let DD play with a crow hop once in a while. If it does get legalized I'd like her to be able to have some feel for it. It hasn't affected her motion one bit. They really are two very distinct feels. I don't think one can easily convert one way or the other. DD finds it very difficult to crow hop effectively.

 

[JJsqueeze]

As for what a girl should do when competing against a replanter, the answer is just to do her thing. What else can she do? Complain? Pull a Tanya Harding on the other pitcher? Not a lot of options for the pitcher. The coach can ask the ump to watch the IP and call it. But the pitcher is pretty powerless over what other kids are doing.

 

[Il softball fan]

I have only seen one girl actually doing the replant style against my DDs team, and that was a few years ago in 12U level. She did it on every pitch, and was not called once. It was painfully obvious and just watching it had me hoping mad by the end of the game.

Rocketech knows way more about pitching that I, so I wont argue pitching mechanics, as it may slow down the pitch. My thoughts from watching the girl, it did add an advantage to her, as by the time she released the ball she was much closer to the plate than a normal pitch. The second advantage was that when she came forward, and replanted she would go forward at an angle on some pitches, thus changing the angle that the ball was coming towards the hitter.

 

[Rocketech1]

I dunno RT. your argument makes sense in a way but the brick analogy doesn't hold for me. I think a more appropriate analogy to a crow hop would be to tap the gas pedal right before the brakes. Replanting gives you a boost of power into the front side. I think there are two very practical points here.

The first is the men's game. If the replant wasn't a power adder then why do so may men's pitchers do it? The second is the over hand outfield throw. If it didn't add power then why do we all naturally do it on throws from 200 feet away?

maybe some of our men's FP former players could chime in on it with their first hand experience.

As for teaching a kid to do it. I personally think the rules will change within the next 5 years so I let DD play with a crow hop once in a while. If it does get legalized I'd like her to be able to have some feel for it. It hasn't affected her motion one bit. They really are two very distinct feels. I don't think one can easily convert one way or the other. DD finds it very difficult to crow hop effectively.

Attached is a real replant (crow hop). Pause the video when Adam's pivot foot hits the ground and you will see his stride foot is still two feet off the ground. I have never seen a female pitcher do this kind of replant. He is also leaping sideways and creating a tremendous amount of torgue. I really doubt STRIKE3 is seeing anything close to this in HS. I would guess what he is seeing is more of a leap and not a true crow hop?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=722HroRdzA8

Again, I stand by my comment that if his DD is using good pitching mechanics, she is well ahead of the game from these girls who have flawed mechanics.

 

[JJsqueeze]

True about the severity of the mens game crow hop....but he very well could be seeing this....



Carda replanted through her career. I don't think she would have thrown as hard without it. Time will tell us shortly if crow hopping adds power as the international game rules should bring more hoppers into competition (even though it isn't technically legal, those rules make it hard to distinguish between a leap and a replant). The crow hop is only flawed from the perspective of the rule set. I do not see anything in a crow hop itself that is a flaw in throwing a pitch. It is flawed only because it is illegal. Every throwing activity where it is legal and time is not an issue develops a crow hop.



The mens fastpitch clip you showed is a good example as well. So I the advantage seems to me to be there otherwise it would not be ever present when it is allowed. Now in the current rules environment, a legal pitcher has a big advantage because she does not have to worry about advancing runners, but mechanically, I think a leap and drag is an artificial way to throw and is not as mechanically sound as a crow hop. Or put another way, if crow hops were legal I do not think anyone would naturally evolve into a leap and drag mechanic.

 

[JJsqueeze]

adding examples that could not be posted due to video limits...

Cricket

 

[JJsqueeze]

NFL quarterbacks in throwing distance competition

 

[STRIKE3]

First, thank you all for the replies. Rocket, I appreciate your perspective I really do and I love that this site offers different opinions and observations on the same thing. It truly helps me look at all angles. Your video of the men's pitching is actually pretty close to what I am talking about except not as extreme. JJSqueeze- you hit the nail on the head and have the same thoughts on this as I do. The CARDA video is a bull's eye!!! EXACTLY what I am seeing and have been the last few years. I failed to mention that on a couple of occasions a very observant coach road an umpire for 3 innings about an opposing pitcher doing the same thing that Carda is doing. Finally, she got called on it (HS level). She looked at her coach and they both smiled and then she immediately switched to a legal pitch. I didn't have a gun but it was obvious to everyone her speed dropped down a level. However, her "legal" pitch looked as if she had been doing it for years. In other words, she clearly knew how to pitch legally, chose to crow-replant until she was called on it, and then finished up with a legal pitch. I don't think she would have pitched "illegally" from the beginning if there wasn't a clear advantage. Just my assessment.

Also, JJ, you answered my question on College pitching and coaching. Carda is clearly a D1 player and she obviously was recruited/plays D1 with that style. Which is the opposite of what I was hoping to hear but answers my question nevertheless.

Again, thank you all for your comments and feedback. We will see where we go from here!