Pool Games

[#19Catcher]

I know this question is geared more towards association/tournament directors, but I was hoping to generate some thought and maybe add some voice to an issue I find with tournament play in this area. Having moved from Georgia to Virginia last Nov, the first thing I noticed was how all pool games seem to be seeded up here. I understand certain ASA/PGF qualifiers and some other big tournaments need and should have a seeding, but your everyday weekend tournament constructed with seeded pool games, on Saturday, seems unnecessary in my opinion. There needs to be game play available for teams to utilize their back-up pitchers and other position players in their back-up positions versus “every game counts.” Pool games should be just that, warm-up games or throw away games that don’t matter to afford coaches that opportunity, and for the players to grow in their back-up positions. Any thoughts on this topic?

 

[JAD]

I have become a big fan of tournaments where you play 4-5 pool games, then the winners of the pools play each other in a one game championship. It gives teams a 4-5 game guarantee, allows for preset game times and matchups, and prevents some of the crazy scheduling where a team has 4-6 hours between games. There are also no fields sitting "idle" waiting for other games to finish.

 

[#19Catcher]

Those are fun tournaments from time to time, we did a lot of 7GG tournaments like that down south, with #1 and 2 playing in and 8th Championship game. They are great draws if you are hosting a tournament as the weaker teams know they are getting a set amount of games for their money, no 2 and a BBQ, and usually you can charge a little more and make more money for your organization.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

I like the variety of formats. I think you may be describing a round robin, I like those.

Actually pools can be ran at your discretion. If you're a team needing to give experience to "back ups" then do so. Maybe you win maybe you don't.

The challenge is for the coach in pool plays. Who do I pitch for the win, who do I play for the win.......BUT still keeping all my players happy AND keep my key players fresh. That's where the experience of the coach comes in.

I'm not sure many would like the idea of blind draws for seeding every time. Most large tourneys already do a blind draw for "pooling" of the pool games. Blind draw for seeding seems unfair to me. One team may draw a cakewalk to the finals, the other may draw the toughest road there is. I'd much rather have to "manage" my team through the tourney than leave it up to chance.

Some teams enter tourneys to win, some teams enter for the experience, that's just the way it is. Depends on your personal situation and needs. If a team is needing more experience and doesn't like the seeding formats, I'd recommend reaching out for a day of "friendly" games with other teams wanting the same. Weve done that before and it served its purpose for all involved.

Just my 2 cents

 

[#19Catcher]

Thank you for your reply, but, I think you miss read what I was saying. I am not saying I wish there was a blind draw for bracket play "every time" big tourneys/qualifiers need to have seeded pool into bracket play. But your "NSA unthaw in March" could/should have unseeded pool play with a blind draw on Sunday. Our coach does good with it, we have a very talented team up and down, but most other teams don’t and I am wondering how they are developing their pitching staff and other players under the must win every game mentality up here…and I am talking 14u and below. Which is probably why most 14u and below teams have “one” great “bracket” pitcher and the rest not so good..put you in against weak teams/when we have a big lead pitchers. Don’t get enough circle time coming up.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Perhaps I am missing the point. Why is the NSA Unthaw different in your mind from any other weekend tourney?

To me "developing" a pitcher or any other position is mostly done away/before a tournament. ( practice, training, scrimmages ) A "tournament" is a way to gauge during "competition", where our skills have progressed and where we need to work on our weaknesses.

Which is probably why most 14u and below teams have “one” great “bracket” pitcher and the rest not so good..put you in against weak teams/when we have a big lead pitchers. Don’t get enough circle time coming up.

Edit: Sorry, had to take a phone call.

Remember 14u was not to far in the past for us. Most teams do have an "ace", but there is no way she could pitch all the pools, all the brackets, and the the championship game. I wish, but it's not humanly possible. Our other pitchers always got plenty of time.

I feel there is some other underlining problem or point you're trying to make.

 

[CoogansBluff]

I have become a big fan of tournaments where you play 4-5 pool games, then the winners of the pools play each other in a one game championship. It gives teams a 4-5 game guarantee, allows for preset game times and matchups, and prevents some of the crazy scheduling where a team has 4-6 hours between games. There are also no fields sitting "idle" waiting for other games to finish.

I like those formats, also. ... You can run into situations where the pool winners advance on a tiebreaker, but I'm less concerned about that than having a set number of pre-scheduled games. IMO, it's in the best interest of kids and the sport to have every team play 4-5 games and get home at a decent hour than have one team play 3 and another one play 8 and leave the park at midnight in these double-elimination marathons.

 

[#19Catcher]

No problem at all, just something I noticed from playing here versus there...you kind of answered my point in your last response. Your #2, and #3 had to carry some of the load in pool play for you, but again, it's seeded...if #2 or #3 started to struggle in anyway, how quick were you to either do the yanking or watch her get yanked? So, what you are saying to that girl is you get to pitch, but if you struggle in any way we are/have to yank you because these are seeded, and we have to win. How about working through the struggles? Is this mentality building confidence in these young girls? How about having the mentality "it's your game, your team has your back...if we win great, if we don't who cares, it’s a pool game, just go out there, have fun, execute what you/we been working on and it is what it is."

All I am wondering is, if at this age its about developing these girls for a future in softball, why we can't have some non seeded pool games like they do in FL, GA, AL, all places we personally played often/only-previously over the past two years and had throw away pool play, etc. You got a girl who you are trying to develop, real game circle time is key & live game in back-up/secondary positions is also necessary to give girls game time they need in those back-up positions. Haven't noticed a lot of scrimmaging going on. Saw one 14u team on the NSA board looking for a scrimmage last weekend, but everyone is already playing...playing in real seeded pool tournaments, you know...it's finally 45 degrees here!! Time to play! hahaha

No problem, as you see by my screen name, my daughter is a catcher, a bracket game-caught 5 games at the ASA Nationals in Moline last year-catcher...just wondering out loud. I don't buy the "that's the way it is here, you don't like it go back to where you came from party line." If there is something we could instill or maybe try to change, to help our girls develope their games, that should be the goal.

 

[CoogansBluff]

By ''seeded pool games,'' do you mean pool games that determine your seed in bracket play? Do these games determine which bracket you get into (gold, silver, etc.), or simply where you are seeded in one main bracket? ...

Everybody says that they are more interested in developing players than winning at the younger ages. Sounds like this format separates those who really believe it and those who just say it.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

"that's the way it is here, you don't like it go back to where you came from party line."

I sure hope that's not the way my post came across.

I can only speak for how things are done where we have played. 95% of the tourneys we entered from OK to FL have been seeded by pool or by sanction points.

#2 or #3 started to struggle in anyway, how quick were you to either do the yanking or watch her get yanked? So, what you are saying to that girl is you get to pitch, but if you struggle in any way we are/have to yank you because these are seeded, and we have to win.

I'm not too fast to yank #2 or 3 because I still need my #1 mule strong for deep in the brackets. If I've calculated we "can't" give up X amount of runs to obtain a higher seed, then yes I have to consider that, that's my job as coach.

But it's not just pitcher's, if my catcher can't hold onto the ball, she comes out, if SS is making too many errors, she comes out.

There is a fine line between a player struggling during a game and having a game "curse" on them. Again it's decided on a game by game basis, and situation.

All I am wondering is, if at this age its about developing these girls for a future in softball,

Of course it is. But like I said Monday thru Friday we develop, Saturday/Sunday we go into battle.

If a team "needs" more developing time Id recommend less competitive/smaller tourneys. Like this past weekend there was a team who scored 2 runs and gave up 44. Though I commend them for entering, was that good for team moral to enter such a difficult tournament?


Lots of times I see teams playing in the wrong division. I've seen teams in B win every tourney, those need to move up to A class. Ive seen some in A class lose every game, they need to move down to B. One of the hardest thigs for a coach is deciding a which level will his/her players get the bang for the buck for the season.