Peel drop problem

[RAZORWEASEL]

First year 14U DD is having a hard time getting true 12-6 spin on her peel. After seeing some slow motion video, we found out that her hand tracks to the inside of the ball (think almost palm out). Any tips to keep the hand more behind the ball. She is using a split finger grip currently, but has also played with different grips to try and help the finish.

I'll post some video later.

Also, as a first time poster....and a long time lurker....I am continually impressed by the constructive comments that many of you provide.

 

[coach james]

Use three fingers on a long seam with the primary grip coming from the thumb and pinky finger. Then have her focus on the middle finger coming straight up after release.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Use three fingers on a long seam with the primary grip coming from the thumb and pinky finger. Then have her focus on the middle finger coming straight up after release.

Long ??? We add... not touching any seams w/T&P ~Xpitcher...DD alternates 2 & 4 seams... but likes the 2 seam best Then she will put the 3 fingers behind the seam...same thing w/ T&P... for a little Hal's Flat Finger Knuckle Ball... ACTION !!!

 

[Rick Pauly]

Suggested drill:
Pitcher stands at 30 feet from catcher; Pitcher throws from the strided parallel powerline position with full arm circle; pitcher has taken one step to the right and catcher one step to her right.....this sets up an angled "crossfire" release. Now just throw a fast ball low and across....the fingers will automatically get behind the ball in a peeling fashion (actually in an I/R snapover fashion). Do not force any rolling type action....just throw fastball. The fingers and wrist will naturally get behind the ball.
Put a piece of red electrical tape around the middle of the ball...the middle finger should be on the length of the tape.....if the red tape is down the middle of the ball as it spins toward the catcher.....then you have perfect drop spin.

 

[coach james]

Use three fingers on a long seam with the primary grip coming from the thumb and pinky finger. Then have her focus on the middle finger coming straight up after release.

Long ??? We add... not touching any seams w/T&P ~Xpitcher...DD alternates 2 & 4 seams... but likes the 2 seam best Then she will put the 3 fingers behind the seam...same thing w/ T&P... for a little Hal's Flat Finger Knuckle Ball... ACTION !!!

Why are you guys throwing two seam movement pitches? When its the seams cutting into the wind that actually makes the ball move. Two seams means your only getting half the possible effectiveness.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Coach
I to was a firm believer in seam orientation being a big component in ball movement.....but have backed off of that a bit.
I had the opportunity to spend an entire afternoon and evening with Dr. Alan Nathan, Professor Emeritus Department of Physics at the University of Illinois. Dr. Nathan has written numerous papers regarding the physics of baseball/bat-ball collision/etc. We talked for 2-3 hours about ball movement and I "proudly" gave him all my opinions. Based on his knowledge of research there aren't any definitive studies that indicate that the seams are much of a factor in ball movement.....he did state that his intuition suggested that seam orientation could be a very minor factor. Of course I was devastated to think I wasn't right on something so near and dear to my heart......but until I see a definitive study I'm going to concede to a man much more intelligent than me on the subject.
Here is a link to his website....some really great video clips and articles. Dr. Nathan is really a great guy.....very normal down to earth person who just happens to be extremely well versed in the laws of physics.

baseball.physics.illinois.edu

Why are you guys throwing two seam movement pitches? When its the seams cutting into the wind that actually makes the ball move. Two seams means your only getting half the possible effectiveness.

 

[javasource]

Two seams means your only getting half the possible effectiveness.

Yeah, I used to think that, too. I ended up in an argument with a guy much more intelligent than me in that science stuff... like Rick did. I concede that now...

The relationship and effect that drag has on influencing the MOVEMENT of a ball is not a direct relationship (4 seam does not equal twice a 2 seam), as you suggest. You'd think a smooth ball would NOT break as much as a ball with rough surface, but this has been refuted by the old dimpled golf ball, having less drag than a smooth one.

Furthermore, think of those seems cutting with taped balls... how many pitchers really get perfect 12-6, 6-12, etc... spin? It's the rate of spin and speed of the pitch, as well as the the pressure and turbulence around a ball (the boundary layer) - that ultimately influence the pitch the most... in regards to the effect of spin... There are also many environmental and lunar effects that do their own damage, too...

I'm not saying that 4 seams can't influence more than 2 seams... but the relationship to movement is not 2:1 because of a grip - and seldom does a pitch actually utilize the 4 seams equally (softballs aren't symmetric either)... and as such, the center of pressure changes, allowing for variations in every pitch.

I may be wrong, as usual... but this is how I understand it... I'm definitely open to ideas/info on this one...

 

[JAD]

First year 14U DD is having a hard time getting true 12-6 spin on her peel. After seeing some slow motion video, we found out that her hand tracks to the inside of the ball (think almost palm out). Any tips to keep the hand more behind the ball. She is using a split finger grip currently, but has also played with different grips to try and help the finish.

I am NOT a pitching expert, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.....it sounds like your DD is not getting her wrist fully rotated during her wind up. My DD throws a peel drop (12/6 spin) with the same grip and pitching motion as her 4-seam fastball, she just changes her release "peeling back" on the seams with her wrist and elbow instead of IR follow through. If she does not get her wrist fully rotated during her wind up the ball will move like a drop/curve (with 10/4 spin) - moving down and away from a RH batter (DD is a RHP).

 

[Perfect Circle]

Why are you guys throwing two seam movement pitches? When its the seams cutting into the wind that actually makes the ball move. Two seams means your only getting half the possible effectiveness.

Coach... your properly right on that. Wanting them to see less spin so they confidently commit before they realize its dropping off the table...2 seam

And the opposite for high and inside ...thur the ceiling drop... up at eye level seeing more spin, and coming right at you...4 seam

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EP: you can see which one she has down to easy...& Catlike

 

[RAZORWEASEL]

Appreciate the comments:

Just a little bit of background that may help. DD has been seeing a PC for about 3 years, taught her to throw hard (13yr old/59-60 mph, ) but really has some messed up mechanics. Not terrible, but didn't correct things that were obviously wrong. Throwing hard maybe puts blinders on to some of the flaws, even for a coach. Closes the door hard and threw with mostly her upper body. Threw a very nice FB, CU, SC, and turnover DB. DD makes an elite level club team 3 months ago, and we agree to change mechanics when signing on. PC is a college coach. Mechanics teaching are spot on and really enforces staying tall, staying open as long as possible. DD hasn't gained any speed yet, but has developed a wicked RB (26-28 RPS on the REV Fire) and curve is becoming a decent pitch.

FB and PeelDB are OK but seem to have tapered (57-59 mph)due to the hand tracking on the inside of the ball at release. DD was used to shoulders/hips/hand facing home at release. Now shoulders/hips are at third with hand facing home. Her original mechanics would have her hand facing third as well, thus the tracking on the inside half of the ball now creating bullet spin, yuck!

It's getting better, just wondering if there is anything to make sure the hand stays behind the ball or is it just a matter of re-learning the finish and repetitions.