Infield Fly signal confusion

[SoftballMama]

We had a crazy play at our game last night and I would like some advice from umpires. We had runners on 1st and 2nd. There was one out. Batter hit a fly ball to 2nd baseman, who drops it. Batter is out. (I was good until this point.) Runners on 1st and 2nd had taken off in full sprint in complete disobedience of coaches. 2nd baseman picks up the ball to throw to SS at 2B. Umpire in field goes to 2nd to make the call. Runner slides into 2nd. It is not a force because batter is out due to infield fly rule. It’s a close play, but umpire, standing over runner on the ground, pumps his fist. Runner begins to run off the field. The plate umpire calls the batter out due to the infield fly then announces that runner from first who slid into second is out because she ran off the field to the dugout. I say, “She was out at 2nd. The field ump pumped his fist as he was standing over her.” Plate ump calls field ump over who says, “No, I was giving the infield fly signal.” If she was safe on the slide, I would think the appropriate signal would have been the double hand swoosh. (Don’t know the official name for that )
Any insight is appreciated. All I know to tell my daughter (it wasn't her, but I want her to learn from it) is: One - stay at 1st in this situation. Two - she should never leave a base until the ump makes her.

 

[Comp]

Infield fly signal is a point up in the air, not a fist pump like a punch out.

 

[BretMan]

Talk about confusion. I got confused just reading that!

If an umpire is making the proper signals, an infield fly signal shouldn't be confused with the signal for a tag play. If the sliding runner wasn't out on the tag, the base umpire should have given the old double hand swooshie...otherwise known as "a safe signal"...accompanied by a loud verbal, "Safe!" call. If she was out, then you get the out signal and a verbal call of, "Out!".

I'd also say that once the infield fly had been signalled, from a mechanics standpoint the base umpire should have dropped his arm by the time he moved into position for the tag play, instead of running around with his arm up in the air and still having it up in the air for the slide and tag.

The infield fly and the safe/out call on the tag are two separate things that should be signalled by two separate, distinct actions. If executed properly, the difference should be obvious to all participants.

If it became apparent that the runner left the field only because of an improper signal by an umpire, then the runner could be placed back on second base. Apparently, that's not what happened here- or, at least, not what these umpires think happened here.

Following a confusing play like this, any coach should be able to request time and get a reasonable explanation from the umpires. As a coach, my first question would be if the runner was actually tagged out before reaching the base. And I would want to have that answered the the base umpire, the guy who actually made the call, not the plate umpire who was 80 feet away and had no business ruling on the tag play. If the base umpire says she was tagged out, then all the signalling and ensuing confusion is really moot. She really was out and the signalling didn't change that fact.

If he tells me she was safe, I'm going to press for an answer on why there was no safe signal given and what all the fist pumping was about. Frankly, the answer you got that the base umpire was "still signalling the infield fly" strikes me as pretty weak and maybe even a case of the plate umpire sticking up for his partner that caused the confusion with his poor mechanics.

Maybe...just maybe...if it becomes obvious that the runner left the base just because of the umpire's poor mechanics, the light bulb will go off for these guys and they'll put the runner back on base. If not, then at the least maybe they'll realize the importance of using good, solid, crisp signals to relay information to the game's participants and not make that same mistake again.

 

[SoftballMama]

Thanks, Bretman - I was hoping you'd reply.

If an umpire is making the proper signals, an infield fly signal shouldn't be confused with the signal for a tag play. If the sliding runner wasn't out on the tag, the base umpire should have given the old double hand swooshie...otherwise known as "a safe signal"...accompanied by a loud verbal, "Safe!" call. If she was out, then you get the out signal and a verbal call of, "Out!".

There was no safe signal, only the hand pump, so she thought she was out and so did coach.

I'd also say that once the infield fly had been signalled, from a mechanics standpoint the base umpire should have dropped his arm by the time he moved into position for the tag play, instead of running around with his arm up in the air and still having it up in the air for the slide and tag.

I didn't look for the infield fly signal. I was too busy watching the girls take off running when they were supposed to be holding at their bases. I didn't really notice the ump until the runner slid and he gave the fist pump (which he later said was his fist going around in a circle and claimed it was his infield fly signal, but there was no finger pointed up).

The infield fly and the safe/out call on the tag are two separate things that should be signalled by two separate, distinct actions. If executed properly, the difference should be obvious to all participants.

If it became apparent that the runner left the field only because of an improper signal by an umpire, then the runner could be placed back on second base. Apparently, that's not what happened here- or, at least, not what these umpires think happened here.

Believe it or not both teams' coaches wanted the girl put back on base, but the umps said no.

Following a confusing play like this, any coach should be able to request time and get a reasonable explanation from the umpires. As a coach, my first question would be if the runner was actually tagged out before reaching the base. And I would want to have that answered the the base umpire, the guy who actually made the call, not the plate umpire who was 80 feet away and had no business ruling on the tag play. If the base umpire says she was tagged out, then all the signalling and ensuing confusion is really moot. She really was out and the signalling didn't change that fact.

Yes, coach did speak with the umps. Base ump said she was safe. Plate ump said, where is she? Coach said "in the dugout." Plate ump says, right - that's why she's out. Coach points out she was signaled out - there was no safe signal.COLOR]

If he tells me she was safe, I'm going to press for an answer on why there was no safe signal given and what all the fist pumping was about. Frankly, the answer you got that the base umpire was "still signalling the infield fly" strikes me as pretty weak and maybe even a case of the plate umpire sticking up for his partner that caused the confusion with his poor mechanics.

Coach asked why the fist pump if she was safe. Base ump said it was his infield fly signal.

Maybe...just maybe...if it becomes obvious that the runner left the base just because of the umpire's poor mechanics, the light bulb will go off for these guys and they'll put the runner back on base. If not, then at the least maybe they'll realize the importance of using good, solid, crisp signals to relay information to the game's participants and not make that same mistake again.[/QUOTE]

The runner left the base because she is inexperienced and saw the ball flying through the air! LOL But, I will say, she made an excellent slide to get into 2nd safely.

BretMan, I know it is hard to be an ump - there are some crazy coaches and parents out there. I understand mistakes are made. I just wanted to know if this was one, and from what you say, I think it was. Bottom line - I will tell my dd on a close play, don't leave the base until the ump makes you.