- Oct 12, 2009
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No, but there's a right way to get the bat head moving and a wrong way to get the bat head moving.
In my own words
- Thread starter Not_Enuf_Mustard
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No, but there's a right way to get the bat head moving and a wrong way to get the bat head moving.
Can you elaborate on the right and wrong ways?
If the hands act as the pivot point, wouldn't that just leave the wrists and or centrifugal force to get the bat head moving?
- Oct 12, 2009
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Yes, and the right way to is with centrifugal force and not the active contraction of the wrists.
IOW, it's an unpowered pivot point.
The MLB/high level bb pattern is "hitting" (primarily radial handle force), not swinging (primarily CF) as described in The Golf Machine (TGM) by Homer Kelley, a handbook/method for describing all types of golf patterns, there can be "hitting" with handle torquing, the axe handle technique with "drive loading", or there can be swinging where Centrifugal Force is primary, from 4th edition:
Here's another couple of interesting ones from the 4th that didn't move forward . . . .
10-19-A DRIVE LOADING . . . Drive Loading is the "Axe Handle" technique - an out-and-out Right Arm Thrust against the Clubhead Lag (Angular Inertia) striving to accelerate (radially) a Pre-stressed (Bent) Clubshaft, from a slow Start Down through Impact. . . Clubhead Throwaway here is usually due to over-acceleration.
10-19-C DRAG LOADING . . . Inertia can hold the Clubhead inside the arc of the Hands or hold to a Line Delivery Path (2-L). Centrifugal Force will set in when the Clubhead crosses to the outside and it will begin to pull into its own orbit. Then further acceleration will only cause uncontrolled "Hitting," guaranteeing Clubhead Throwaway.
Develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action (to the desired Handspeed per 10-15-B so that the Throw Out Action (6-B-3) can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke Sequence.
So the nature of Acceleration is VITAL to the sucess and distinction of the two procedures. The Swinger reaches his max handspeed quickly and then holds it constant. HE MUST NOT TRY TO ACCELERATE HIS HANDS FURTHER!!! On the other hand the Hitter MUST CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE otherwise he will fizzle out pre-maturely. The Hitter is sole dependent on ACCELERATION because he doesn't have CF to help him out.
Here's another couple of interesting ones from the 4th that didn't move forward . . . .
10-19-A DRIVE LOADING . . . Drive Loading is the "Axe Handle" technique - an out-and-out Right Arm Thrust against the Clubhead Lag (Angular Inertia) striving to accelerate (radially) a Pre-stressed (Bent) Clubshaft, from a slow Start Down through Impact. . . Clubhead Throwaway here is usually due to over-acceleration.
10-19-C DRAG LOADING . . . Inertia can hold the Clubhead inside the arc of the Hands or hold to a Line Delivery Path (2-L). Centrifugal Force will set in when the Clubhead crosses to the outside and it will begin to pull into its own orbit. Then further acceleration will only cause uncontrolled "Hitting," guaranteeing Clubhead Throwaway.
Develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action (to the desired Handspeed per 10-15-B so that the Throw Out Action (6-B-3) can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke Sequence.
So the nature of Acceleration is VITAL to the sucess and distinction of the two procedures. The Swinger reaches his max handspeed quickly and then holds it constant. HE MUST NOT TRY TO ACCELERATE HIS HANDS FURTHER!!! On the other hand the Hitter MUST CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE otherwise he will fizzle out pre-maturely. The Hitter is sole dependent on ACCELERATION because he doesn't have CF to help him out.
Detail on TGM/golf "hitting"/axe handle vs swinging/rope handle:
Imagine the Clubshaft as an axe handle. Not steel...not graphite...just a stiff, wooden axe handle. The Hitter Loads his Right Elbow during the Start Down and then uses it to Push the Axe Handle Clubshaft (and its attached Clubhead) through Release and Impact.
If the Clubshaft were something more flexible -- say, a piece of rope -- then a Swinger could Pull the 'rope' (and its attached Clubhead) through Impact. But the Hitter could not Push it through.
Bottom line:
You can push on an Axe Handle and divert its Centripetal Force into a rotating motion.
You cannot push on a Rope Handle.
excruciating golf detail:
Posterchild for Hitters - Stuart Appleby - LynnBlakeGolf Forums
TGM: In the Hitter's Basic Stroke Pattern (12-1-0), three Accumulators -- #1 (Right Elbow), #2 (Left Wrist) and #3 (Left Hand) -- are driven through only two Pressure Points -- #1 (the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb) and #3 (the meaty part of the right forefinger where it contacts the back of the Clubshaft).
During the Start Down, Hitters use the Pivot in conjunction with the Hands resisting the change of direction at the Top to Drive Load (10-19-A) the entire Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Club) against Pressure Points #1 and #3. Since the Right Elbow is directly behind and supporting this Assembly (6-B-3-0-1), it is likewise Loaded (6-H-0-E #5). This Loaded Lag Pressure with the full support of the Right Forearm and Elbow is then Delivered Down Plane with absolutely no change whatever in the Pressure.
During the Downstroke and Release, the Right Arm drives the Left Arm through Pressure Point #1 (10-11-0-1). Simultaneously, the Right Arm also drives the Clubshaft through Pressure Point #3 (6-C-2-C). Thus, the active drive of the Uncocking Right Elbow (7-1 and 6-B-3-A) against the #3 Pressure Point (10-11-0-3) both Uncocks the Left Wrist (7-3) and Rolls the Left Hand (6-B-3-0). Because Pressure Point #2 (the last three fingers of the Left Hand) is not used to actuate the Left Wrist, its function is reduced to merely holding the Club.
Swingers, however, utilize three Pressure Points when using a Three Accumulator Stroke. Power Accumulator #4 (the Left Arm) is Loaded by the Pivot against Pressure Point #4 (where the Left Arm contacts the side), and this Drag Loading Action (10-19-C) Loads the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft only) via the Left Wrist (6-H-0-F #5) through Pressure Point #2. However, this does not result in an active drive of the Clubshaft because Centrifugal Force alone powers the Club (10-11-0). This 'Passive Clubhead Lag' (10-11-0-2) -- the Clubshaft being Pulled lengthwise directly toward the Plane Line (6-C-2-A) -- sets up the Centrifugal chain reaction (6-M-1) that ultimately pulls the Clubhead into its In Line condition (6-C-0-4) of Full Extension (2-P).
In a Maximum Power Pivot Stroke, the Hitter also will use the Pivot to load Pressure Point #4 (as opposed to a Three Accumulator Stroke wherein the Right Shoulder simply provides motion in the Start Down and then acts as the backstop for the driving Right Arm in Release). In which case, there will be a Four Accumulator Stroke. However, the Swinger is best advised to use a Three Accumulator maximum because any attempt to use the Right Arm -- other than to Trace with the Clubhead Lag Pressure and for Extensor Action and its support (through Pressure Point #1) of the Left Arm's Pull of the Clubshaft (not a Powering of the Clubshaft itself) -- will conflict with the Stroke's Centrifugal drive and actually result in a Power Loss, not a Power Gain.
"Resisting the Backstroke motion" (7-19-1) is the Hitter's method of Loading the Right Elbow to Drive (10-19-A) the entire Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) from the Top (10-21-A). Should he choose to go to the End (10-21-C), he must resist the formidable tendency to then Accelerate the Clubshaft (only) Longitudinally (Pull it lengthwise as if a piece of string) rather than the entire Assembly Radially (Push it from behind as if an Axe Handle). Study 2-K and 7-23.
"Throwing the Club against the Lag Pressure Point" (7-19-3) with the Pivot is the Swinger's method of Loading the Left Wrist to Drag (10-19-C) the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft only) from the Top or End (10-21-A/C).
Imagine the Clubshaft as an axe handle. Not steel...not graphite...just a stiff, wooden axe handle. The Hitter Loads his Right Elbow during the Start Down and then uses it to Push the Axe Handle Clubshaft (and its attached Clubhead) through Release and Impact.
If the Clubshaft were something more flexible -- say, a piece of rope -- then a Swinger could Pull the 'rope' (and its attached Clubhead) through Impact. But the Hitter could not Push it through.
Bottom line:
You can push on an Axe Handle and divert its Centripetal Force into a rotating motion.
You cannot push on a Rope Handle.
excruciating golf detail:
Posterchild for Hitters - Stuart Appleby - LynnBlakeGolf Forums
TGM: In the Hitter's Basic Stroke Pattern (12-1-0), three Accumulators -- #1 (Right Elbow), #2 (Left Wrist) and #3 (Left Hand) -- are driven through only two Pressure Points -- #1 (the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb) and #3 (the meaty part of the right forefinger where it contacts the back of the Clubshaft).
During the Start Down, Hitters use the Pivot in conjunction with the Hands resisting the change of direction at the Top to Drive Load (10-19-A) the entire Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Club) against Pressure Points #1 and #3. Since the Right Elbow is directly behind and supporting this Assembly (6-B-3-0-1), it is likewise Loaded (6-H-0-E #5). This Loaded Lag Pressure with the full support of the Right Forearm and Elbow is then Delivered Down Plane with absolutely no change whatever in the Pressure.
During the Downstroke and Release, the Right Arm drives the Left Arm through Pressure Point #1 (10-11-0-1). Simultaneously, the Right Arm also drives the Clubshaft through Pressure Point #3 (6-C-2-C). Thus, the active drive of the Uncocking Right Elbow (7-1 and 6-B-3-A) against the #3 Pressure Point (10-11-0-3) both Uncocks the Left Wrist (7-3) and Rolls the Left Hand (6-B-3-0). Because Pressure Point #2 (the last three fingers of the Left Hand) is not used to actuate the Left Wrist, its function is reduced to merely holding the Club.
Swingers, however, utilize three Pressure Points when using a Three Accumulator Stroke. Power Accumulator #4 (the Left Arm) is Loaded by the Pivot against Pressure Point #4 (where the Left Arm contacts the side), and this Drag Loading Action (10-19-C) Loads the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft only) via the Left Wrist (6-H-0-F #5) through Pressure Point #2. However, this does not result in an active drive of the Clubshaft because Centrifugal Force alone powers the Club (10-11-0). This 'Passive Clubhead Lag' (10-11-0-2) -- the Clubshaft being Pulled lengthwise directly toward the Plane Line (6-C-2-A) -- sets up the Centrifugal chain reaction (6-M-1) that ultimately pulls the Clubhead into its In Line condition (6-C-0-4) of Full Extension (2-P).
In a Maximum Power Pivot Stroke, the Hitter also will use the Pivot to load Pressure Point #4 (as opposed to a Three Accumulator Stroke wherein the Right Shoulder simply provides motion in the Start Down and then acts as the backstop for the driving Right Arm in Release). In which case, there will be a Four Accumulator Stroke. However, the Swinger is best advised to use a Three Accumulator maximum because any attempt to use the Right Arm -- other than to Trace with the Clubhead Lag Pressure and for Extensor Action and its support (through Pressure Point #1) of the Left Arm's Pull of the Clubshaft (not a Powering of the Clubshaft itself) -- will conflict with the Stroke's Centrifugal drive and actually result in a Power Loss, not a Power Gain.
"Resisting the Backstroke motion" (7-19-1) is the Hitter's method of Loading the Right Elbow to Drive (10-19-A) the entire Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) from the Top (10-21-A). Should he choose to go to the End (10-21-C), he must resist the formidable tendency to then Accelerate the Clubshaft (only) Longitudinally (Pull it lengthwise as if a piece of string) rather than the entire Assembly Radially (Push it from behind as if an Axe Handle). Study 2-K and 7-23.
"Throwing the Club against the Lag Pressure Point" (7-19-3) with the Pivot is the Swinger's method of Loading the Left Wrist to Drag (10-19-C) the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft only) from the Top or End (10-21-A/C).
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
The above would seem to completely refute the HI "launch and spend" theory, requiring the hitter to PUSH the handle all the way to contact.
I'm assuming then Tom that you are advocating "pushing" the bat handle as to how the "hitter" should swing a bat. I though HI promoted the hips "pulling" the hands with NO push on the handle to contact. Is this another portion of HI mechanics you don't agree with?..........
Otherwise, why would you even use this analogy?.......
Last edited:
BM -
Thanks for the question.
I think the MLB pattern is a further specialization of the hitting pattern with earlier batspeed so that the push is actually rearward acceleration that starts before pivot and the swing is more on the back leg putting the front foot down.
Your golf swing at least the driver swing you posted is 2 plane with thrusting hip.
we can think of the 2 plane swing as a 3 phase swing with:
1- bckswing
2-transition/slot
3- swing
during phase 2, the hands rotate clockwise aas described by7 Hardy so that as the arms start down the hands go away from the shoulder and the top hand palm stays open or evn opens more. this resists and loads the body for the swing where the arms role including the back arm internal rotationa dn the closing of the clubface by someback forearm pronation as well.
In the case of the MLB pattern, the swing is done much earlier almost to the poitn where "the slot is the swing".
Instead of turning the hands clockwise by upper arm rotation, at GO, both forearms twist to start getting the palms flat ASAP and then contact comes before there is any back arm INternal rotation or forearm pronation and before the back scap unpinches at all.
The TGM method recognizes that many swings are not "pure Centrifugal Force swings".
This is especially true of the MLB pattern.
Happy golfing !
Thanks for the question.
I think the MLB pattern is a further specialization of the hitting pattern with earlier batspeed so that the push is actually rearward acceleration that starts before pivot and the swing is more on the back leg putting the front foot down.
Your golf swing at least the driver swing you posted is 2 plane with thrusting hip.
we can think of the 2 plane swing as a 3 phase swing with:
1- bckswing
2-transition/slot
3- swing
during phase 2, the hands rotate clockwise aas described by7 Hardy so that as the arms start down the hands go away from the shoulder and the top hand palm stays open or evn opens more. this resists and loads the body for the swing where the arms role including the back arm internal rotationa dn the closing of the clubface by someback forearm pronation as well.
In the case of the MLB pattern, the swing is done much earlier almost to the poitn where "the slot is the swing".
Instead of turning the hands clockwise by upper arm rotation, at GO, both forearms twist to start getting the palms flat ASAP and then contact comes before there is any back arm INternal rotation or forearm pronation and before the back scap unpinches at all.
The TGM method recognizes that many swings are not "pure Centrifugal Force swings".
This is especially true of the MLB pattern.
Happy golfing !
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