Force out question

[Crabby_Bob]

Okay. Now if the defensive team appeals, throws the ball to second and the 3rd/force out is recorded, can the offensive team appeal that decision siting rule 8.7 saying that the out should have been recorded when the player entered the dugout? Which out would have precedent?

Why? A runner forced to advance did not reach the base he was supposed to touch before being put out. The third out being a force means no runs score on this play.

This year, there are two proposed changes in ASA to eliminate the need for anyone to touch a base in this situation except for the runner from 3B & the BR. I hope this does not get approved since there is no reason for anyone to be relieved of their baserunning duties.

I agree. This is basically an appeal to be more like our small ball friends.

 

[mitcharf]

Let's try again. R3 is NOT going to be called out for leaving the field of play AFTER the game was won. The umpires are not going to stand around and wait until the players finish high-fiving each other or whatever. Ever see the end of a game? What do the umpires do? They will wait long enough to see if there is any indication a team has an appeal. If not, they meet and exit the field, usually on the winner's side, if possible.

However, if there is a pending appeal, they will honor that appeal and since R3 was NOT called out for leaving the field of play. That appeal is a force out which negates the winning run and the teams will continue into the next inning.

Okay, this explanation makes more sense to me. I can see that when the run crosses the plate, then the game is over, and thus the runner from first base would not be called out for entering the dugout. And I can see that the rules do allow for the defensive team to still appeal that the runner from first base never touched second base, and thus get the force out.

It does raise another question for me. It seems the crux above the above logic is that we're dealing with the winning run crossing the plate. So what about a similar scenario, except that the play begins with the home team trailing by a single run? So the sequence of events would then be:

1) Batter hits ball and becomes batter-runner
2) Ball hits the ground in left field
3) Runner from third base crosses the plate
4) Batter-runner reaches first base
5) Runner from first base enters the dugout

Since the run crossing the plate would not end the game, then rule 8.7.U would still apply and the runner from first base would be called out, right? It seems to me that this would be the third out of the inning, and thus rule supplement 1M would preclude the defense from making an appeal on the runner from first base.

This year, there are two proposed changes in ASA to eliminate the need for anyone to touch a base in this situation except for the runner from 3B & the BR. I hope this does not get approved since there is no reason for anyone to be relieved of their baserunning duties.

Agreed.

 

[mitcharf]

Okay. Now if the defensive team appeals, throws the ball to second and the 3rd/force out is recorded, can the offensive team appeal that decision siting rule 8.7 saying that the out should have been recorded when the player entered the dugout? Which out would have precedent?

There is no rule which would allow the offensive team to make an appeal in that case. An appeal can only be for:
1) Missing a base (or touching the wrong portion of the double first base, if applicable)
2) Leaving a base before a ball is caught
3) Attempting to advance to second base after making a turn at first base
4) Batting out of order

The offensive team COULD protest the game, but I think MTR's logic makes sense in a case where the run crossing the plate causes the game to be over.

 

[Momo'sDad]

It does raise another question for me. It seems the crux above the above logic is that we're dealing with the winning run crossing the plate. So what about a similar scenario, except that the play begins with the home team trailing by a single run? So the sequence of events would then be:

1) Batter hits ball and becomes batter-runner
2) Ball hits the ground in left field
3) Runner from third base crosses the plate
4) Batter-runner reaches first base
5) Runner from first base enters the dugout

Since the run crossing the plate would not end the game, then rule 8.7.U would still apply and the runner from first base would be called out, right? It seems to me that this would be the third out of the inning, and thus rule supplement 1M would preclude the defense from making an appeal on the runner from first base.

The run scores, the defense got the 3rd out when the runner gave himself up, and the game continues. What is there to appeal?

 

[HollowMan]

If Fred "Bonehead" Merkle had given this play some thought, he wouldn't be famous.

 

[Sweet Lou]

If Fred "Bonehead" Merkle had given this play some thought, he wouldn't be famous.

Ha,ha. I was thinking the same thing.

 

[mitcharf]

The run scores, the defense got the 3rd out when the runner gave himself up, and the game continues. What is there to appeal?

Earlier you yourself said "The runner isn't going to benefit from the fact that he made no attempt to advance to 2B." But in this case they definitely WOULD benefit, since we're assuming here that the team on defense would have had time to get the force out at second base, provided the runner had tried to go there. The team on defense would probably be upset that they were essentially robbed of their chance to get the force out at second base, because the runner on first base chose to sprint into the dugout rather than even attempt to go to second base. It *feels* like an unintended loophole to me, but perhaps it's not. The thing is, if this is a valid way to prevent the defending team from getting a force out, it opens up other possibilities for this. For example:

(situations assume runners on first and third, 2 out)

- Batter hits the ball, runner from third scores, the first base coach lifts the runner on first base and carries them. Thus that runner is out by rule 7.E, the inning is over, and the run would score since the defense did not get a force out before the first base coach interfered.

- Batter hits the ball, runner from third scores, the batter rounds first and passes the runner from first. This makes the batter out, and again ends the inning on something other than a force out, thus allowing the run to score.

The first base coach example is perhaps the worst one. In the other examples, either the runner from first base has to get to the dugout before the defense is able to make the force out, or the batter has to physically pass the runner on first base before the defense is able to make the force out. So presumably this gives the defense some window of time in which to attempt the force out at second base. But with the first base coach example, he's already right there by first base. He just has to wait for the runner from third to cross the plate, and then physically assist the runner. This could give the defense considerably less time to attempt to make the force play.

 

[mitcharf]

Ha,ha. I was thinking the same thing.

Me too. When I was talking to a guy at work about this, he made some comment like "Well, maybe this has never come up in major league baseball. I mean, those guys would always know they have to run to the next base." So I told him the story of Fred Merkle.