Tom I guess you don't read my posts anymore than I read yours. I asked who the guy was. That would indicate I'm asking who the guy is. Buy the $4 dollar book yourself if you want to know. I'm sure you can explain what he really means and how it fits in with the revealed truth of the universe just like everyone does except Steve and Paul.
Enlighten me on hitting
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Steve Ferroli. I've known about his website and book for a while. If you google Ted Williams enough times Ferroli's name will eventually pop up.
So is your point that Ted's "forward" for Ferroli's book is the same as Ted's "letter of recommendation" to Epstein? That's fine. You got me...touche...you win...whatever makes you feel good.
I think it's safe to say that Ted had more friends than just Epstein and likely talked about hitting with many of them because it was a subject he was passionate about.
It doesn't change the fact that Epstein played for Ted for three years while with the Senators and mentored under him until his death.
WOW! Now this IS a case of the pot calling the kettle black! Mark, for you to zealously cling to Englishbey's hitting beliefs, when it neither has the feel or look of the ML pattern has to relate back to your quote above. Talk about "do we teach what we really see"? Englishbey/Nyman/PCR does not. Lead arm dominance, using the shoulders to actively pull the bat around, swing as a unit, swing around the front hip is not found in the ML pattern.
Mike
Cannonball
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I see Tom again mentions Hardy. Here are some quotes I copied from BBF some time ago. I don't have the link. I apologize but think that there is much to glean from the follow:
The Plane Truth for Golfers"[pg. 65]
"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is ,at the top of the backswing ,your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you ,folded with elbow pointing slightly behind you .Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball ,you'll see that from this position ,they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch ."
"The torso is like an inner or centripetal force whose movement activates the bat ,which receives the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly ,the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball."
"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing .You don’t throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."
Didn’t Hardy go on to further say:
pg 73
"If there is any secret to the two-plane swing ,it is the downward separation of the arms toward your right side rather than at the ball that allows you to hit from the inside."
In this regard, didn’t Steve Englishbey state:
"I am emphasizing the fact that it is a model,an approximation and simplification of the kinematic parameters as are ALL models of human movement.
Meaning that,in reality, ie., how muti-joint movement from the shoulders to the hands is actually created ,there is no such thing as a one-plane or two plane swing path .
Meaning that how ones creates a swing path --whether it be golf or baseball is a function of how well one controls the movement and muscle action from load to unload. The swing path one creates is a function of motor control, ie. how well one's "system" is operating in terms of consistency ,and efficiency."
Nyman said of swing planes:
"Simplicity of the swing comes from understanding that a high-level swing is nothing more than making sure that the mass of the bat (sweet spot) travels in a plane of rotation parallel to a plane that is “scribed out” by a rod or stick passing through both shoulders extending in the same direction as would be the bat passing over home plate.
The important concept here is that what might be termed the "swing plane" is driven by rotation of the shoulders. And that in a high-level swing the sweet spot of the bat will "find" that plane of rotation simply because of the physics (biomechanics) of a high-level swing."
Board Member added this conversation between Peter Jacobson and Hardy:
Quote:
"The one plane swing is like a baseball swing."
Peter Jackobson:
Quote:
"I'm hitting the ball much farther with a 1 plane swing then I was with a 2 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"As you can see, the hips are almost square to impact with a 2 plane swing, vs. the hips really driving through and rotating toward the target much further on a 1 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"The 2 plane swing is like a ferris wheel where the hands and arms move up and down relative to the bodys rotation. The one planer tilts over a bit more and the arms and hands move around the body more like a baseball swing."
Finally some thoughts on the one plane swing can be found here:
Groove a One Plane Golf Swing Automatically
Again, some good things to think about from these various conversations.
The Plane Truth for Golfers"[pg. 65]
"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is ,at the top of the backswing ,your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you ,folded with elbow pointing slightly behind you .Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball ,you'll see that from this position ,they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch ."
"The torso is like an inner or centripetal force whose movement activates the bat ,which receives the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly ,the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball."
"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing .You don’t throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."
Didn’t Hardy go on to further say:
pg 73
"If there is any secret to the two-plane swing ,it is the downward separation of the arms toward your right side rather than at the ball that allows you to hit from the inside."
In this regard, didn’t Steve Englishbey state:
"I am emphasizing the fact that it is a model,an approximation and simplification of the kinematic parameters as are ALL models of human movement.
Meaning that,in reality, ie., how muti-joint movement from the shoulders to the hands is actually created ,there is no such thing as a one-plane or two plane swing path .
Meaning that how ones creates a swing path --whether it be golf or baseball is a function of how well one controls the movement and muscle action from load to unload. The swing path one creates is a function of motor control, ie. how well one's "system" is operating in terms of consistency ,and efficiency."
Nyman said of swing planes:
"Simplicity of the swing comes from understanding that a high-level swing is nothing more than making sure that the mass of the bat (sweet spot) travels in a plane of rotation parallel to a plane that is “scribed out” by a rod or stick passing through both shoulders extending in the same direction as would be the bat passing over home plate.
The important concept here is that what might be termed the "swing plane" is driven by rotation of the shoulders. And that in a high-level swing the sweet spot of the bat will "find" that plane of rotation simply because of the physics (biomechanics) of a high-level swing."
Board Member added this conversation between Peter Jacobson and Hardy:
Quote:
"The one plane swing is like a baseball swing."
Peter Jackobson:
Quote:
"I'm hitting the ball much farther with a 1 plane swing then I was with a 2 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"As you can see, the hips are almost square to impact with a 2 plane swing, vs. the hips really driving through and rotating toward the target much further on a 1 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"The 2 plane swing is like a ferris wheel where the hands and arms move up and down relative to the bodys rotation. The one planer tilts over a bit more and the arms and hands move around the body more like a baseball swing."
Finally some thoughts on the one plane swing can be found here:
Groove a One Plane Golf Swing Automatically
Again, some good things to think about from these various conversations.
Mark, sorry it took me so long to answer your post. I will say that Tom already did an excellent job answering your question. He is a lot more thorough and detailed than myself. However in the interest of discussion here is my 2 cents.
I believe the weight on the back foot is primarily governed by the angle of tilt in the axis of rotation. As the lead arm works up or down to adjust to high and low pitches the angle of the shoulders change accordingly. The shoulders are more tilted for lower pitches and more level for higher pitches. I believe that the weight on the back foot is set involuntary by the body to maintain balance as the shoulders tilt.
Epstein briefly mentions the hinging of the back knee on my "Torque Drill" dvd. He mentions it in the context of; "we're not swinging up in the rotational swing, we're just getting our body back to be level to the ball, not level to the ground." He immediately follows those comments with a reference to how rotational hitters don't groove their swings. He's clearly making a comparison to linear hitting and the fact that rotational hitters always hit with a tilted axis. He also begins the comment with "What the player will wind up doing". Which I understand to mean that hinging the back knee is not a teachable movement that a hitter would drill on.
The area where the hinging of the back knee really comes into play is when a hitter gets fooled on an offspeed pitch. I'm actually impressed that Tom knew about this aspect of Mike's teachings. When a hitter is fooled on an offspeed pitch, hinging the back knee buys time and allows the hitter to keep their weight back and maintain balance. This is the one instance where the hitter will have more weight on the back foot than is customary.
I saw a Dominican player do this a couple of nights ago during the World Baseball Classic. It was very impressive and I made sure to play it back several times for my DD.
I view Epstein's material in it's entirety and don't cherry pick certain aspects of what he teaches. So when it comes to the behavior of the back foot I take into consideration all of his teachings including:
1. The heel of the back foot must come off the ground when the hips are initiated as illustrated in the #2 position of the "Numbers Drill".
2. Collasping the backside is really, really bad.
3. The lead arm/elbow works up for low pitches and down for high pitches and shoulder tilt varies accordingly.
4. The swing must be launched from a balanced position.
5. The hitter's axis is tilted at contact and follow-through.
6. The perfect swing is the adjustment the hitter makes to the oncoming pitch.
Epstein's material has traditionally been geared to distinguishing the differences between rotational hitting and linear hitting. In the future it wouldn't surpise me if he makes some adjustments in phraseology to differentiate himself from all the other rotational material flooding the market.
Cannonball -
Thanks for bringing up these points.
Having read and studies Hardy and taken lots of hacks in both golf and baseball using both 1 plane and 2 plane, PCR and MLB patterns, my conclusion is that there are 2 basic total body patterns in BOTH sports.
However, given the specific challenge of MLB (high level pitching,woodbat,reaction time limit) ONLY the 2 plane pattern has been proven to work over the years.
This is in distinction to ice hockey, for example, where slap shots are al one plane which is another example Hardy uses. You can use a 2 plane slap shot, but that is not what you see any of the best players using.
So I would recommend you try these two patterns for yourself, then decide how the info stands up from the perpsective of the primacy of the divergent patterns/options you have present inside of you that you share with all other humans.
Alternatively, you could just forget about trying it yourself and stick to a somewhat incomplete and literal/"rational" interpretation of Hardy and say "what Hardy says is that baseball swings are all 1 plane" and any other interpretation is someone "telling us what Hardy thinks".
THis interpretation has a lotof problems though when you take the totality of Hardy's description into account. For example, Hardy says the 2 plane pattern feels like swinging down, not swinging around. MLB hitters feel like they swing down, not around.
2 plane swingers "keep the shoulder in there". 1 plane swingers "turn like heck". MLB hitters kepp the shoulder from flying out. PCR swingers "turn like heck and hit wit the back shoulder".
If you go trough the Hardy breakdown, you wil find the 2 different patterns map to two different baseball swing options based essentially on how scaps function, PCR/1 plane or MLB/2 plane.
More on your other points to follow.
Thanks for bringing up these points.
Having read and studies Hardy and taken lots of hacks in both golf and baseball using both 1 plane and 2 plane, PCR and MLB patterns, my conclusion is that there are 2 basic total body patterns in BOTH sports.
However, given the specific challenge of MLB (high level pitching,woodbat,reaction time limit) ONLY the 2 plane pattern has been proven to work over the years.
This is in distinction to ice hockey, for example, where slap shots are al one plane which is another example Hardy uses. You can use a 2 plane slap shot, but that is not what you see any of the best players using.
So I would recommend you try these two patterns for yourself, then decide how the info stands up from the perpsective of the primacy of the divergent patterns/options you have present inside of you that you share with all other humans.
Alternatively, you could just forget about trying it yourself and stick to a somewhat incomplete and literal/"rational" interpretation of Hardy and say "what Hardy says is that baseball swings are all 1 plane" and any other interpretation is someone "telling us what Hardy thinks".
THis interpretation has a lotof problems though when you take the totality of Hardy's description into account. For example, Hardy says the 2 plane pattern feels like swinging down, not swinging around. MLB hitters feel like they swing down, not around.
2 plane swingers "keep the shoulder in there". 1 plane swingers "turn like heck". MLB hitters kepp the shoulder from flying out. PCR swingers "turn like heck and hit wit the back shoulder".
If you go trough the Hardy breakdown, you wil find the 2 different patterns map to two different baseball swing options based essentially on how scaps function, PCR/1 plane or MLB/2 plane.
More on your other points to follow.
Cannonball
Ex "Expert"
- Feb 25, 2009
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Tom, am I missing something? You cite Hardy. So, I looked up the quotes I could find and they seem to suggest that Hardy says that the 1 plane swing IS what MLB players do. I'm confused. Then, in reading the article with the link, it states that golfers such as Tiger Woods use a 1 plane swing. In doing so, it again discusses the 1 plane swing in terms no unlike a baseball swing. So you see, I'm not arguing any point any other poster made. I'm arguing Hardy Quotes and their relavance.
Please don't miss my other points as I also included quotes from other individuals.
Please don't miss my other points as I also included quotes from other individuals.
Well sure, in Hardy's rather simple analogy, yeah, in the baseball swing the left arm is across the chest with the right arm behind. Seems like he really got off his feet on that one. 1 and 2-planers will have this look.
Well, again, this is rather a simply description. But the sequencing, timing, and creation of the above movement is important and what seperates 1 vs. 2-plane swings. The 1-plane swing locks in the hands/arms, forms the box (in hitting), and turns like heck as a unit, actively using the shoulders to fling the arms around. As Tom said, 2 -planers keep the shoulder in there while they begin turning the bat with the hands/arms, creating early bat speed and improving on-the-fly-adjustability. Stretch is created as the lower torso begins to rotate into toe touch, while the hands/arms bat begin loading and turning the bat. Shoulder rotation is momentarily delayed during lateral tilt of the shoulders, so that the hands/arms can begin whipping the bat out of the load position.
Contrast that to the 1-plane, turn like heck, turn the shoulders like heck, just hang onto the bat, and fling the arms around. In GOLF, a 1-plane works great. Ball is stationary on a tee ,and late club speed or bat speed is generated to hit the snot out of the ball.
ML hitters do not use their shoulders like 1-planers/Englishbey/Nyman/PCR teaches.
That's for danged sure. ML hitters don't do this.
Well no kidding.
Wow...this is where the wheels fall off.
LOL, you don't miss a chance do you. Certainly friendships should be considered in evaluating recommendations. When I thought Epstein was the deal I recommended him on the net. A lot. Spoke to him once. Not friends at all. Then I kept learning. Certainly not friends with Nyman though I've recommended reading his stuff often. Never met Dixon before his passing but I've sold a number of his books due to recommendations. I've told Steve many times, if I find someone better, I'll say so. I've said numerous times on here and elsewhere I think Slaught's stuff via Candrea and Enquist is pretty good in many respects. I've said numerous times on here and elsewhere that Yeager may be pretty good since his adherents have said some pretty smart things IMO over the last year or so. Now as to Ted's recommendation of Epstein, guess people will have to compare Ted's materials and Ted's swing to Epstein's stuff and decide how well it matches up. Given the friendship, I don't think we dare assume outright that friendship didn't have something to do with the recommendation. Nor do I expect people to assume my recommendation of anyone is correct. As always, compare anything anyone says, including me, about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. Now of course that's not a perfect test because some things you just can't see in video and we will all interpret video according to our existing paradigms and our prior training in terms of how the body works and how momentum works. But that test will toss out some of the more obvious nonsense. If the test was perfect, a manipulative bar owner wouldn't be able to sucker so many people.
Note to others. If Tom or Slapper are talking about Englishbey, you can be sure it's distorted. Carry on.
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