Curve or not really?

[Rick Pauly]

Ray
I am not sure how you can take the position that seems to be coming across. I know you have seen high level curveballs (that curve).....if you are trying to split hairs on spin axis well that is a tired discussion IMO. What's important is does the ball curve. There are so many variables that create ball movement that you cannot just focus on one criteria. Is spin axis important....absolutely, but so is speed, release angle, release point, spin rate, and seam orientation.
It almost sounds like you are dissing Cat Osterman's curveball....if you espoused that in the NPF the players would have you committed.....especially the hundreds that could never hit it or got frozen by it.
I love a good thread that gets the juices flowing but one that seems intent on creating outright arguments just doesn't seem to accomplish much. I just don't get it.

 

[sluggers]

Maybe you are right...

You have no idea how much BS my DD and I were told when she was learning to pitch. I felt like Diogenes looking for someone, anyone who understood pitching. It drives me a little batty when people make inaccurate statements about pitching. You are very thoughtful about it.

To me, the difference between a 9-3 pitch and a 10-4 pitch is not "splitting hairs". Parents should be told the truth...getting 10-4 spin is the best their DD is going to get.

But, to go a little further:

These parents come on here and they want "the one pitch that will make my DD great." But, that isn't problem. Their DDs don't need one more crappy breaking pitch. Their DDs need to perfect the pitches they got. But, it is a lot of hard, mundane, boring work to perfect a breaking pitch.

As to Cat, I'm more amazed by her now than before. She throws all three of these pitches with a similar axes. The difference between the axis of her rise, drop and curve aren't very much. A curve with 3-9 spin would be a worse pitch...the lateral movement would be more, but the pitch would be easier to detect.

There are so many variables that create ball movement that you cannot just focus on one criteria. Is spin axis important....absolutely, but so is speed, release angle, release point, spin rate, and seam orientation.

I agree with you, but I'm not sure "ball movement" is the correct way to describe it. I think "effectiveness" is more accurate.

At the higher levels of play, I suspect that effective pitchers sacrifice some amount of ball movement to get their different pitches to look similar for a portion of the ball flight.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Ray
I am not sure how you can take the position that seems to be coming across. I know you have seen high level curveballs (that curve).....if you are trying to split hairs on spin axis well that is a tired discussion IMO. What's important is does the ball curve. There are so many variables that create ball movement that you cannot just focus on one criteria. Is spin axis important....absolutely, but so is speed, release angle, release point, spin rate, and seam orientation.
It almost sounds like you are dissing Cat Osterman's curveball....if you espoused that in the NPF the players would have you committed.....especially the hundreds that could never hit it or got frozen by it.
I love a good thread that gets the juices flowing but one that seems intent on creating outright arguments just doesn't seem to accomplish much. I just don't get it.

I'm setting here wondering if some hacked Sluggers account ??????????

 

[Rick Pauly]

Maybe you are right...

You have no idea how much BS my DD and I were told when she was learning to pitch. I felt like Diogenes looking for someone, anyone who understood pitching. It drives me a little batty when people make inaccurate statements about pitching. You are very thoughtful about it.

To me, the difference between a 9-3 pitch and a 10-4 pitch is not "splitting hairs". Parents should be told the truth...getting 10-4 spin is the best their DD is going to get.

But, to go a little further:

These parents come on here and they want "the one pitch that will make my DD great." But, that isn't problem. Their DDs don't need one more crappy breaking pitch. Their DDs need to perfect the pitches they got. But, it is a lot of hard, mundane, boring work to perfect a breaking pitch.

As to Cat, I'm more amazed by her now than before. She throws all three of these pitches with a similar axes. The difference between the axis of her rise, drop and curve aren't very much. A curve with 3-9 spin would be a worse pitch...the lateral movement would be more, but the pitch would be easier to detect.



I agree with you, but I'm not sure "ball movement" is the correct way to describe it. I think "effectiveness" is more accurate.

At the higher levels of play, I suspect that effective pitchers sacrifice some amount of ball movement to get their different pitches to look similar for a portion of the ball flight.

I think I understand now where you are coming from. Ball movement is all about physics and physics says a 3-9 spin (12-6 axis) will apply the pressure differential directly 90 degrees to the axis......the ultimate horizontal curve. To your point, this may not be the most desireable curve.......like your DD's dropcurve or my DD's risecurve I think they are more effective in our women's game. Often it takes a spin other than 3-9 to overcome the dropping affect of gravity(risecurve)......or a spin other than 3-9 to take advantage of the dropping affect of gravity (dropcurve).
Getting 3-9 spin on a curve is just about as difficult as getting 6-12 spin on a riseball. But as you say, it is a lot of hard/mundane work to perfect a breaking pitch or to find the spin axis that is best for you.

 

[JJS]

I'm setting here wondering if some hacked Sluggers account ??????????

I think he must have gotten all worked up administrating on the hitting forum. He wanted to come over here and beat up on some of the good guys

 

[BoardMember]

Was filming a 13yo kid I work with throwing her curve. There are 3 rubbers/plates in this cage. We are on the right side rubber throwing to the right side plate. The catcher is lined up with her left shoulder inside the outside corner of the plate. This pitch appeared to both of us to break late and hard off the corner........

I'm resolved to the fact that filming on horizontal plane of the pitch doesn't do the human eye's perception of pitch break any justice..........

 

[riseball]

... Parents should be told the truth...getting 10-4 spin is the best their DD is going to get.

To your point about inaccurate statements about pitching, this is one that does not hold water. Why? Is this due to some type of physical limitation of the human body? I will grant you that 9-3 is not typical and that most or even few pitchers may achieve what most would consider great 9-3 rotation, but why do you say it cannot and will not happen?

 

[sluggers]

I had been up for 48 hours straight due to jet lag, and I was trying to crystallize some thoughts. Perhaps it was a waste of time.

To your point, this may not be the most desireable curve.......like your DD's dropcurve or my DD's risecurve I think they are more effective in our women's game.

I think that is the point I've been trying to make, and I got sidetracked into an esoteric argument which makes no practical difference.

To me, "perception of break" (POB) is when the batter first notices that the pitch deviates from the anticipated flight path. The later the POB, the less time the batter has to react and change her swing. The less time a high level batter has to change her swing, the more effective the pitcher. If the POB is close to the plate, then the pitch has "late break".

The key to an effective breaking pitch *against high level batters* is to make the POB as late as possible. An effective breaking pitch doesn't need a tremendous amount of movement.

I'm not saying movement is irrelevant, but delaying the POB is much more important. Pitchers may have to sacrifice movement and speed in order to make the POB late.

This continual quest for a higher spin rate and a better spin axis are red herrings.