Curve or not really?

[sluggers]

I'm recovering from jet lag due to a recent trip to China, so I find myself with a lot of spare time on my hands at very strange hours.

Anyway, there is the issue about whether a curve ball is even thrown in games. I'm still trying to find a video of a pitch that actually has 9-3 spin.

So, Riseball referenced the Sarah Pauly video. The video is entitled, "Fastpitch Softball Pitching Curveball" and features the great Sarah Pauly. Here is a link to the video: https://youtu.be/FU48GAHTeuo

I did a capture of the softball for a portion of the flight. I put the captures in sequence. Then, I drew in a line where the seam appears to be. The pictures are captures from the still frames of the video. Of course, perhaps the original HQ video shows more detail.

Based on this video, the ball does not have 9-3 spin. It looks to me to be bullet spin.

I'm not sure anyone is throwing a pitch with anything like 9-3 spin. (The Cat Osterman curve ball video looks like 10.5 to 4.5 spin, but the quality is very poor.)

 

[JJS]

Sluggers, who says that the curve has to have 9-3 spin? You are the only one saying that. A curve simply needs to have late break away from a righty. It's okay if it's 8-2, or 10-4 as long as it breaks

 

[riseball]

Some folks grasp the concept that a 9-3 curve is more or less theoretical. But others while acknowledging pitches can be thrown anywhere from 8-2 to 10-4 seem to think that 9-3 is somehow impossible. They will post some videos of a couple of elite level pitchers throwing a single pitch of the thousands they throw each year, and then offer it as conclusive proof of how that pitch is always thrown by that pitcher and every other pitcher in the universe. So if there are a billion curveballs thrown each year and you look at 10 videos and do not see a single perfect 9-3 rotation, then obviously that is an unattainable physical feat, right? Thankfully these elite level pitchers do not throw a given pitch exactly the same every time. Since although it would satisfy some folks curiosity, it is certainly not optimal for the task at hand. If you split the hairs fine enough you find that no curve is 9-3, no drop is 12-6 etc. So what? As we have come to find out much of what is discussed in the theoretical world has little resemblance to what happens in the practical world where the pitches are thrown, and bats are swung.

 

[Rick Pauly]

I am not sure that 9-3 spin is ideal for a curveball. IMO the curve (palm up curve) should have something closer to a 10-4 spin (1-7 axis) so that it offsets gravity a bit. I believe the ideal location for this pitch is about 3 inches above the knees......combine the release angle required with the offsetting gravity and it is very difficult to distinguish it from a dropball until about 12-14 ft. in front of the zone....this is very difficult for the hitter to comprehend in time to get anything close to the sweet spot of the bat on the ball. Like a riseball, this pitch is often a swing under and miss as it displays a slight lifting illusion.
One cue I often use is "it's half rise/half curve/throw it low".

This curveball discussion seems to be a morph of the infamous "does the riseball really rise" threads. The #1 resource to go to for an opinion would be the ladies in the NPF or high level college softball like the SEC.....I am pretty sure that their brain interprets a lot of pitches as curving and that's all a pitcher needs to do....fool the hitter.

For those with advanced pitchers, the back to back combination of a dropball strike on the outside corner and a curveball miss just off the outside corner is a terrific "tunnel" combo. They both have the same release angle until about 15 feet in front of the zone....again, very difficult for a hitter to figure out which pitch it is.

 

[JJsqueeze]

For those wondering, I think Rick describes spin from the pitcher's perspective.

 

[sluggers]

Lots of pitchers throw drop curves...that is, balls with 10-4 spin. It is an effective pitch.

In a different thread, Riseball posted the video of Sarah as proof of a 3-9 curve and said:

Despite any claims to the contrary, the truth is that plenty of pitcher throw legitimate curve balls with with 3 - 9 spin.

Riseball now says:

Some folks grasp the concept that a 9-3 curve is more or less theoretical.

My problem is grasping how in a 24 hour period Riseball can go from "plenty of pitchers throw 3-9 curve balls" to "the 3-9 curve is more or less theoretical".

But, it is softball...consistency is something we demand of players but not from coaches, umpires or instructors.

So if there are a billion curveballs thrown each year and you look at 10 videos and do not see a single perfect 9-3 rotation, then obviously that is an unattainable physical feat, right?

The videos are of two of the best pitchers ever (Sarah Pauly and Cat Osterman) *teaching* how to throw curve balls. Now, logically, it seems that they should be trying to throw their best curve balls in videos entitled, 'How to throw a curve ball".

If two of the best pitchers *IN THE WORLD* don't throw 9-3 spin curve balls in their teaching videos, it is hard to be believe that a bunch of girls are throwing them in a 12U rec league in Lake Wobegon.

 

[riseball]

... If two of the best pitchers *IN THE WORLD* don't throw 9-3 spin curve balls in their teaching videos, it is hard to be believe that a bunch of girls are throwing them in a 12U rec league in Lake Wobegon.

Maybe they have been taught using a Jennie Finch DVD and HE mechanics just like she uses when she pitches? We all know that all the best pitchers *IN THE WORLD* teach it *EXACTLY THE WAY THEY DO IT*.

 

[riseball]

Lots of pitchers throw drop curves...that is, balls with 10-4 spin. It is an effective pitch. .

So a 10-4 is commonplace but a 9-3 is a myth, a unicorn, a physical impossibility? And since you have never witnessed a single one we must conclude it is pure fantasy right? As a stated previously, measured with enough precision there is no such thing as 9-3 curve. But there are plenty of players that come close enough where a reasonable person would call it a 9-3.

 

[sluggers]

And since you have never witnessed a single one we must conclude it is pure fantasy right?

You are the one saying that the 3-9 curve exists, even though there is *NO* evidence that one exists. If you want to prove that a Yeti exists, all you have to do is produce the video.

You can easily prove the existence of a 9-3 curve, or something similar to a 9-3 curve, by simply posting a video of one. If every kid in Hoboken can throw a curve as you suggest, it seems Youtube should be flooded with curveball videos.

Look at Osterman's "Rise/Drop/Curve" instructional video. (I captured the pitches in the attached pictures.) She explains all the pitches in a simply that makes sense, complete with showing the direction of the spin. There is a slow motion video for the rise and drop, showing the spin.

We have a video of Osterman's riseball with 7-1 spin. Here is the link: https://youtu.be/iG4fIor1hy4 at the 1:00 mark.
We have a video of Osterman's drop ball with 1-7 spin. https://youtu.be/iG4fIor1hy4 at the 3:10 mark.

Then, when she gets to the curveball, there is no similar video, she doesn't do a slow motion for it. She does a regular speed video. (That suggests that she couldn't get the 9-3 spin she was advocating.) The spin looks like 10.5-4.5.

We universally say that Osterman has the best movement pitches of anyone. Yet, she can't get throw it with 3-9 spin in an instructional video, after she says how important it is to get 3-9 spin???

To Rick's point about effectiveness, the images show why Osterman is such a great pitcher. All three of the pitchers have significantly different breaks. There are distinct pitches. In combination, it is understandable why she is really difficult to hit.

 

[riseball]

You are the one saying that the 3-9 curve exists, even though there is *NO* evidence that one exists If you want to prove that a Yeti exists, all you have to do is produce the video.

You can easily prove the existence of a 9-3 curve, or something similar to a 9-3 curve, by simply posting a video of one. If every kid in Hoboken can throw a curve as you suggest, it seems Youtube should be flooded with curveball videos.

Look at Osterman's "Rise/Drop/Curve" instructional video. (I captured the pitches in the attached pictures.) She explains all the pitches in a simply that makes sense, complete with showing the direction of the spin. There is a slow motion video for the rise and drop, showing the spin.

We have a video of Osterman's riseball with 7-1 spin. Here is the link: https://youtu.be/iG4fIor1hy4 at the 1:00 mark.
We have a video of Osterman's drop ball with 1-7 spin. https://youtu.be/iG4fIor1hy4 at the 3:10 mark.

Then, when she gets to the curveball, there is no similar video, she doesn't do a slow motion for it. She does a regular speed video. (That suggests that she couldn't get the 9-3 spin she was advocating.) The spin looks like 10.5-4.5.

We universally say that Osterman has the best movement pitches of anyone. Yet, she can't get throw it with 3-9 spin in an instructional video, after she says how important it is to get 3-9 spin???

To Rick's point about effectiveness, the images show why Osterman is such a great pitcher. All three of the pitchers have significantly different breaks. There are distinct pitches. In combination, it is understandable why she is really difficult to hit.

What exactly is your point? This seems to be yet another DFP exercise in mental masturbation rather than the dissemination of anything resembling useful information for people who are actually developing pitchers.