As I have mentioned in previous posts, the plate umpire who made the original call almost immediately realized and stated that the ball was dropped. After conferring with the base umpire they decided to keep the call as originally stated mainly because they believed the defensive team stopped playing at that point while the runners continued on. I guess they felt like they couldn't assume the runner would have been safe at first had the play continued, so they stuck with the plate umpires original call. Therein lies the contoversy because they just assumed the runner would have been out at first. Still can't find an applicable ASA rule.
Correction of incorrect call
- Thread starter Roz
- Start date
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An admission of poor judgment doesn't negate the fact that something was judgment.
Now, the final ruling may be protestable if it doesn't comport with the rules.
There is nothing wrong with saying "catch" or "no catch." Odd school nitpicking clone teachings regarding "out" or "catch" are obnoxious. Do we say "safe" when the ball is trapped? No. We say "no catch" because saying safe is stupid and the runner may not ultimately be safe. What is the opposite of "no catch?" "Catch!" So what's the problem?
It's no longer a judgement call at the point that the umpire said the fielder didn't catch the ball though, right? Now it is a rules question which is grounds for protest. It's no different than having a girl beat the throw to 1st, and the BU admit that was the case, but he calls her out because she didn't do a handstand when she got there. That's not judgement. That's rules.
And btw, I can certainly understand how difficult umpiring can be. Nobody is perfect. Everyone misses calls. And any time a call is missed, we as coaches automatically usually go off the deep end and don't handle it the best way we could. But to insinuate that a call can not "cost" a game is not fair. In most cases, games are won and lost because of preparation, or lack thereof. However, there have been calls in every sport by umpires or refs that have 100% cost teams games. The thinking that every team that wants to win not only has to be prepared to match talent, skill and dedication with the other team, but also should be prepared enough to overcome bad calls is ridiculous. It is this thinking by some umpires that usually lead to many coach/umpire issues. It is challenging enough to get a bunch of hormonally charged teenage girls thinking straight and focused and pitches, signals, plays, etc, to have to be concerned with an umpire thinking that even if he calls a girl out with bases loaded on a play that would have scored a couple runs that somehow the lack of runs that game and the subsequent loss was due to a lack of preparation by the coach.
And btw, I can certainly understand how difficult umpiring can be. Nobody is perfect. Everyone misses calls. And any time a call is missed, we as coaches automatically usually go off the deep end and don't handle it the best way we could. But to insinuate that a call can not "cost" a game is not fair. In most cases, games are won and lost because of preparation, or lack thereof. However, there have been calls in every sport by umpires or refs that have 100% cost teams games. The thinking that every team that wants to win not only has to be prepared to match talent, skill and dedication with the other team, but also should be prepared enough to overcome bad calls is ridiculous. It is this thinking by some umpires that usually lead to many coach/umpire issues. It is challenging enough to get a bunch of hormonally charged teenage girls thinking straight and focused and pitches, signals, plays, etc, to have to be concerned with an umpire thinking that even if he calls a girl out with bases loaded on a play that would have scored a couple runs that somehow the lack of runs that game and the subsequent loss was due to a lack of preparation by the coach.
- Jun 22, 2008
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Rubbish. It is not old school as "old school" used to teach "catch" which is unnecessary. If it is a catch, the call is "out". It is really simple, since it is indeed is an out. Too many people don't hear both words and confuse the call, so we teach the you only use the "no catch" with equal sell emphasis on BOTH words. There is little chance of confusing that with a straight "out".
- Jun 22, 2008
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I'm not insinuating anything, I'm stating it outright. Unless your pitcher has thrown a perfect game and every hitter has gotten a couple of hits and there were zero base running, batting or coaching errors, not even mentioning how well the line-up was constructed for that particular opponent, a single call, bad or otherwise did NOT cost you the game. I'm sure you will think it did and may even use it as an excuse, but it didn't.
Your train of thought is ludicrous. At no time have I suggested the team needs to prepare to overcome what you think are bad calls. If you have been reading the thread, I stated how the presumed bad call would be corrected, if necessary. You seem to have a preconceived notion that umpires make careless calls and don't care of the affect on the game. THAT perception on the coach's part is what leads to issues between umpires and coaches.
And this response is exactly the point I was making. I didn't say that all umpire make bad calls and don't care of their outcome....but that some are so arrogant to think they are beyond reproach, that they are incapable of a bad call, or that their bad call shouldn't affect a game. The comment that "if you think a call cost you the game you didn't play well enough to win" is so absolutely insane everyone BUT umpires. Umpires are human. Believe it or not, ALL humans make mistakes. That's just the way it goes. Your line of thinking is that the outcome of every game is rooted 100% on the coach and players and that an umpire has zero affect on that. That sir, is the disconnect.
There are quite obviously games that are lost due to preparation, poor play, poor coaching, wrong girls in wrong places, etc etc etc....99% or higher I'm sure are because of these facts. Lord knows I've cost our team a game or three. But to think that a bad call doesn't affect the outcome of any game...just wow....it's akin to going to the doctor for cancer treatment for a stage one curable cancer and the doctor gives you the vile with arsenic in it instead of chemo. Imagine that...now you have to listen to the doctor tell your family if you hadn't done all that bad stuff in your life you wouldn't have had cancer anyway, so it is clearly your fault for putting him in a situation where a mistake HE made would cost you.
And no...I'm not equating a disease and possible death to a softball game. Just making an analogy.
There are quite obviously games that are lost due to preparation, poor play, poor coaching, wrong girls in wrong places, etc etc etc....99% or higher I'm sure are because of these facts. Lord knows I've cost our team a game or three. But to think that a bad call doesn't affect the outcome of any game...just wow....it's akin to going to the doctor for cancer treatment for a stage one curable cancer and the doctor gives you the vile with arsenic in it instead of chemo. Imagine that...now you have to listen to the doctor tell your family if you hadn't done all that bad stuff in your life you wouldn't have had cancer anyway, so it is clearly your fault for putting him in a situation where a mistake HE made would cost you.
And no...I'm not equating a disease and possible death to a softball game. Just making an analogy.
- Dec 7, 2011
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http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/15161-catch-no-catch-crazy-outcome.html
See the above link for my recent thread of the same sort of bad outcome but due to the opposite => where the umpires don't call anything on a dropped line drive....
I think in the end an equitable "most appropriate balanced outcome to a mistaken call" needs to be made. I think they happen rarely enough that the umps and the tournament director could resolve each case this way. We all make mistakes.....
See the above link for my recent thread of the same sort of bad outcome but due to the opposite => where the umpires don't call anything on a dropped line drive....
I think in the end an equitable "most appropriate balanced outcome to a mistaken call" needs to be made. I think they happen rarely enough that the umps and the tournament director could resolve each case this way. We all make mistakes.....
- Jun 22, 2008
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No such thing was stated. I said, and stand by the comment, that a call does not cost anyone a game. You are making a argument over things that were never offered.
You need an excuse? Knock yourself out. I've got enough experience to know better.
Well, I am NOT an umpire and I firmly believe that an umpire has NEVER cost my team a game. I have been coaching for 8 years and every year I pound into the girls that we can't control the umpire, weather, or luck. If we didn't get a hit every ay bat there is ALWAYS something we could have done better. Teach personal responsibility not excuses.
