In the semi finals of our recent state tournament a call was made that cost us at least 1 run in a game that we lost 10-9, so I would like some help with rules interpretation. Here is the scenario: runner on third with 2 outs, batter hits a line drive that the third baseman attempts to make a diving catch on. The 3rd baseman, however, drops the ball, the runner on 3rd scores and the batter makes it to 1st base safely. Unfortunately, the plate umpire had yelled out "catch" immediately, but both umpires then acknowledged that the 3rd baseman had dropped the ball. This led to significant controversy as to what should be done. After the plate umpire and field umpire conferred their ruling was that the run did not count, the batter was out despite the fact that the 3rd baseman clearly dropped the ball and the inning was over. Did the umpires make the correct decision?
Correction of incorrect call
- Thread starter Roz
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- Sep 5, 2012
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a) Bad mechanics by the PU. There's no reason to rush the out call. When a player makes a catch, they've also got to demonstrate possession & control. In any case, that out call should have immediately turned into a safe call as soon as they realized that the catch wasn't completed.
b) Based on your description, the correct ruling would've been to let the play stand as it wound up. Run scores & runner on 1st with 2 outs.
b) Based on your description, the correct ruling would've been to let the play stand as it wound up. Run scores & runner on 1st with 2 outs.
- Jun 22, 2008
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No.......maybe......
To start, the call should have been "out".
The OP is a little shaky on a time line as to when the other umpires "acknowledged" the ball was not caught. If sticking with the out was just a "I made the call, I'm sticking with the call because it is easier to take the heat for getting it wrong" bull, that is absolutely terrible.
If the PU had something different, and it is the PUs call that was enough to convince him/her it was the correct call, then it is what it is.
However, if the call is reversed, it is quite possible the proper ruling would have been leave the runner at 3rd and award the BR 1B.
BTW, Roz, if you think a "call" beat you, your team did not play well enough to win the game to start.
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Well I would hope that the coach would protest this ruling and the game on the spot. Simply call over the UIC and Tourney official and ask which runner is being called out and why...there is no way the umpire can give an answer that complies with any rule I know of on the books (unless they lie and say the ball WAS caught then rolled out during transfer). The I made a call out loud that caused player to not react as they normally would have so I will assume the runner going to first would have been out is not in the rulebook.
Absolute worst call I could imagine coming out of this whole scenario would be runners at 1st and 3rd with 2 outs....but I'll let seasoned umps tell us the correct call my guess is run scores runner on 1st with 2 outs
Absolute worst call I could imagine coming out of this whole scenario would be runners at 1st and 3rd with 2 outs....but I'll let seasoned umps tell us the correct call my guess is run scores runner on 1st with 2 outs
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The timeline was that both umpires immediately acknowledged that the 3rd baseman had dropped the ball after the plate umpire made the initial call of "catch". MTR- in my post I said the play cost us a run, not that the call "beat us". However, if that call were not made as it was, the inning and game may have turned out differently. It is possible for a team to play well and have a call significantly influence the outcome of a game.
- Jun 22, 2008
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There is no protest of a judgment call and when all is said and done, that is all it is and the BU don't have a say.
Then the BUs were inappropriate in doing so and may very well be what caused the PU to stay with the original call. Not saying it was the right call or way to handle it, it isn't.
Yes, it cost you a run in a one run game. Sell what you like, but if it wasn't important, why include it in your question? Everything influences a game, from a batter with a cold to a handful of bad decisions by a coach.
It is NOT a judgement call if the umpire acknowledges that the ball was never caught, the runner reached first safely and the runner from third was never tagged out....under these circumstances how is that a JUDGEMENT call the umpire has no basis for recording an out.
Again like I said if he wants to simply correct what he knows was an incorrect call on his part he can simply rethink the situation and decide the ball was in fact caught and then we all just go about our business.
Again like I said if he wants to simply correct what he knows was an incorrect call on his part he can simply rethink the situation and decide the ball was in fact caught and then we all just go about our business.
Interesting points. What I will say is that the plate umpire was very apologetic for making the call of "catch" too quickly not only right after the call was made, but after the game, as well. He knew the ball was not caught, knew the call was at a critical time, and I suspect had some doubts about the best way to handle the situation. Haven't been able to find a specific ASA rule that applies here, so that may be where the element of judgement comes in to play.
- Jun 22, 2008
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The catch/no catch is a judgment call. And until a just recent post, there was no indication the PU acknowledged anything.
But if you want to get rules picky, let's walk through the play. The umpire called "catch" which is pitiful to start, so lets use the proper terminology of "out". Unless there was some element the umpire was missing, and from the OP there was nothing to indicate such a shortcoming, the umpire judges the ball to be caught. To make that call, the umpire must have determined control of the ball. AFTER this point, the player drops the ball. Okay, so what? That does not mean it is not a catch. UNDERSTAND, I am not stating the umpire's judgment was either accurate or timely, but in the OP, nothing indicates this is anything more than an umpire with either bad judgment or poor timing, neither of which is protestable.
Now, if the umpire states, yeah it wasn't a catch, but I'm staying with the call, now you have a misapplication of the rule assuming someone else heard and is willing to repeat the umpire's comment.
and it now appears we are in violent agreement with each other
