- Aug 5, 2016
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Are Pitching Machines making bad hitters?
- Thread starter santirx
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It was the batting cage for me that helped me realize how important timing is for a kids swing beyond the coach-pitch level.
Several years ago, when I started playing baseball again in a 30+ league, I switched to a no-stride batting style. Like Pujols, a wide stance, just a show the heel to the pitcher to start the "load", and use heel plant to help trigger the rest of my swing. Keeps things simpler for me, and enabled me to have some modicum of success off the "fast" machine at the local cages, which use the "iron mike" style machines with the pitching arms.
Like your daughter, I just can't get the timing down on the machines when I step and swing. I can start earlier, later, doesn't matter. Being outdoor cages, it's hard to see the arm swing around, so I'm forced to guess when the release is going to happen, resulting in all sorts of weird front foot/leg actions if I'm the slightest bit early. Switching to a no-stride approach, which may be similar to what Ken was referencing, and may also be similar to the "halfway home" or "command" drills, allows me to "pre-load" until I see the ball, and then just "go". (probably also means I need to learn to accomplish the same thing by "sitting" into my swing as I stride to learn to adjust to off-speed pitches [or pitches that might not come cleanly down a jugs chute]).
Back to my initial comment - fast forward to kid-pitch LL, watching my daughter play baseball again after several years of soccer-only, and I can immediately relate the troubles the kids have with a "real" pitcher who's no longer lobbing them belt high, with the trouble I (and many others, it sounds like) have in a cage - if you wait until you see the ball to start moving, you're too late. "Start moving earlier" has quickly moved into 3rd place on my "most frequent coaching-cues" list, right behind "bend your knees" and "hands up".
For me, timing was one of those things I never really thought about, until I both a) needed to think about it (how the hell am I going to swing in time to hit this pitching machine?) and b) needed to teach it. Also gives me a whole new level of appreciation for a good change-up.
And to drag this post even further off-topic, I still don't understand why timing is used as a justification for teaching a different softball swing - "you have less time to react". Right - but last I checked, the rule book (or books) doesn't say anywhere "thou shalt not move in the batters box until the pitcher releases the ball". I realize "starting earlier" isn't the solution to everything, but I believe it's a much bigger part of most solutions than many realize.
If ever granted 3 wishes by a genie, there are those who would start with world peace, or an end to global hunger. My first two slots are already reserved for more impossible tasks, like "how to teach timing" and "ending bat drag in the 8U universe". The search for the lamp continues...
Several years ago, when I started playing baseball again in a 30+ league, I switched to a no-stride batting style. Like Pujols, a wide stance, just a show the heel to the pitcher to start the "load", and use heel plant to help trigger the rest of my swing. Keeps things simpler for me, and enabled me to have some modicum of success off the "fast" machine at the local cages, which use the "iron mike" style machines with the pitching arms.
Like your daughter, I just can't get the timing down on the machines when I step and swing. I can start earlier, later, doesn't matter. Being outdoor cages, it's hard to see the arm swing around, so I'm forced to guess when the release is going to happen, resulting in all sorts of weird front foot/leg actions if I'm the slightest bit early. Switching to a no-stride approach, which may be similar to what Ken was referencing, and may also be similar to the "halfway home" or "command" drills, allows me to "pre-load" until I see the ball, and then just "go". (probably also means I need to learn to accomplish the same thing by "sitting" into my swing as I stride to learn to adjust to off-speed pitches [or pitches that might not come cleanly down a jugs chute]).
Back to my initial comment - fast forward to kid-pitch LL, watching my daughter play baseball again after several years of soccer-only, and I can immediately relate the troubles the kids have with a "real" pitcher who's no longer lobbing them belt high, with the trouble I (and many others, it sounds like) have in a cage - if you wait until you see the ball to start moving, you're too late. "Start moving earlier" has quickly moved into 3rd place on my "most frequent coaching-cues" list, right behind "bend your knees" and "hands up".
For me, timing was one of those things I never really thought about, until I both a) needed to think about it (how the hell am I going to swing in time to hit this pitching machine?) and b) needed to teach it. Also gives me a whole new level of appreciation for a good change-up.
And to drag this post even further off-topic, I still don't understand why timing is used as a justification for teaching a different softball swing - "you have less time to react". Right - but last I checked, the rule book (or books) doesn't say anywhere "thou shalt not move in the batters box until the pitcher releases the ball". I realize "starting earlier" isn't the solution to everything, but I believe it's a much bigger part of most solutions than many realize.
If ever granted 3 wishes by a genie, there are those who would start with world peace, or an end to global hunger. My first two slots are already reserved for more impossible tasks, like "how to teach timing" and "ending bat drag in the 8U universe". The search for the lamp continues...
This whole thing about making a fake fastpitch delivery in order to hit a machine is nonsense, IMO. Consistent feeding yes. But no need to simulate a windmill (and do you really think a simulated standing arm circle is the same as a true fastpitch delivery from a timing perspective?) I'd bet even with a fake windmill most girls won't start their swing until they see the ball.
Question: do boys teams simulate an overhand throw into a pitching machine?
An earlier poster had it 100% correct when he said his girls "just didn't understand the concept of starting the swing before they saw the ball leave the pitcher's hand."
There will always be times when hitters mis-time a machine. However, you can consistently start slow and early off the machine based on any number of trigger points, no fake windmill required. If you don't find a way to start slow and early, you will always struggle.
Question: do boys teams simulate an overhand throw into a pitching machine?
An earlier poster had it 100% correct when he said his girls "just didn't understand the concept of starting the swing before they saw the ball leave the pitcher's hand."
There will always be times when hitters mis-time a machine. However, you can consistently start slow and early off the machine based on any number of trigger points, no fake windmill required. If you don't find a way to start slow and early, you will always struggle.
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- Dec 11, 2010
- 4,723
- 113
First of all, have a simple goal. With the machine, most machines and operators are capable of this goal: throw balls toward the middle of the zone. Don't worry, they won't all go to the dead middle of the zone. The pitches will vary in location. Make your goal to work on squaring up pitches in the zone. Don't get fancy or you will regret it.
Next, don’t just have whoever shows up feed the machine. It has to be someone who knows how the machine works and knows how to adjust it up, down, in, out. Speed up, speed down. Someone smart enough to figure out when something is wrong with the way the hitters look. Someone who has the authority to say, hold on here, we aren’t doing this anymore until we figure out the problem.
Whoever is feeding the machine, operating the machine, absolutely HAS to feed consistently. I prefer the method described above with a Jugs machine. I have a Sports Attack 3 wheel machine and I think that is a much better machine and I also think that it's very hard to windmill feed it. I raise my arm slowly and I lower it pretty slowly and try and get it to the wheels as cleanly as possible. If the ball bounces around going into the wheels, bounces it is NO BUENO and hitters will struggle. The ball bouncing will screw up timing and sometimes impart weird spin on the ball.
Next: How you set up the machine is crazy important. Figure out where the release point of a real pitcher is and wherever the ball comes out of the machine is where the machine goes. Outside in open areas, if you aren’t careful, you end up with balls shot across the plate at wierd, unrealistic angles. That is a recipe for disaster.
If the machine isn't level it will do crazy stuff. Check that all the legs are the same length. The legs will burrow into the ground sometimes as the machine sits there running. That may make pitches unhittable for all but advanced hitters.
The machine will move. See above. The feeder/operator has to pay attention and keep adjusting it. Try to keep it throwing to the middle of the plate. The height setting will walk. Adjust it. The inside/outside will walk. Adjust it. The operator has to constantly stay on top of it.
Your machine operator should know they are not in a hurry. Give the hitter a chance to recover in between pitches. Don’t rush the hitter so much they aren’t taking good swings. Don’t hit so many balls in a row that the hitter gets fatigued and mechanics break down. It isn’t a race to the bottom of the ball bucket, it is a chance to square up a good pitch with a good swing and hit it hard.
Next, unless you REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, do NOT turn the machine up to 70 so "the pitching they see on game day will look slow and easy to hit". I have heard this garbage too many times by coaches that don’t know what they are doing. This is how mechanics are broken. As in destroyed. This is where machines get a bad rap. Vary the speed. If you can set the speed within a 10 mph window of most of the pitching that you see most games you can make great strides in hitting the pitching you see most of the time. (Which is what you want right???)
As a guideline, ask yourself 3 things: is this machine set to the speed my players see most of the time? Is the ball trajectory similar to what the trajectory of the pitchers we hit against most of the time? Do the hitters look out of sorts? If the hitters struggle, is it too fast or is the feeder inconsistent? DONT JUST KEEP DOING IT IF THE HITTERS DON’T LOOK RIGHT. The goal of using a machine is to learn to crush pitches, in the hitting zone that are as realistic and similar to live pitching as possible.
Pitching machines are worthless unless you use them regularly. As a training aid they have to learn to use it before it helps. If you use it wrong it can cause real damage.
Next, don’t just have whoever shows up feed the machine. It has to be someone who knows how the machine works and knows how to adjust it up, down, in, out. Speed up, speed down. Someone smart enough to figure out when something is wrong with the way the hitters look. Someone who has the authority to say, hold on here, we aren’t doing this anymore until we figure out the problem.
Whoever is feeding the machine, operating the machine, absolutely HAS to feed consistently. I prefer the method described above with a Jugs machine. I have a Sports Attack 3 wheel machine and I think that is a much better machine and I also think that it's very hard to windmill feed it. I raise my arm slowly and I lower it pretty slowly and try and get it to the wheels as cleanly as possible. If the ball bounces around going into the wheels, bounces it is NO BUENO and hitters will struggle. The ball bouncing will screw up timing and sometimes impart weird spin on the ball.
Next: How you set up the machine is crazy important. Figure out where the release point of a real pitcher is and wherever the ball comes out of the machine is where the machine goes. Outside in open areas, if you aren’t careful, you end up with balls shot across the plate at wierd, unrealistic angles. That is a recipe for disaster.
If the machine isn't level it will do crazy stuff. Check that all the legs are the same length. The legs will burrow into the ground sometimes as the machine sits there running. That may make pitches unhittable for all but advanced hitters.
The machine will move. See above. The feeder/operator has to pay attention and keep adjusting it. Try to keep it throwing to the middle of the plate. The height setting will walk. Adjust it. The inside/outside will walk. Adjust it. The operator has to constantly stay on top of it.
Your machine operator should know they are not in a hurry. Give the hitter a chance to recover in between pitches. Don’t rush the hitter so much they aren’t taking good swings. Don’t hit so many balls in a row that the hitter gets fatigued and mechanics break down. It isn’t a race to the bottom of the ball bucket, it is a chance to square up a good pitch with a good swing and hit it hard.
Next, unless you REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, do NOT turn the machine up to 70 so "the pitching they see on game day will look slow and easy to hit". I have heard this garbage too many times by coaches that don’t know what they are doing. This is how mechanics are broken. As in destroyed. This is where machines get a bad rap. Vary the speed. If you can set the speed within a 10 mph window of most of the pitching that you see most games you can make great strides in hitting the pitching you see most of the time. (Which is what you want right???)
As a guideline, ask yourself 3 things: is this machine set to the speed my players see most of the time? Is the ball trajectory similar to what the trajectory of the pitchers we hit against most of the time? Do the hitters look out of sorts? If the hitters struggle, is it too fast or is the feeder inconsistent? DONT JUST KEEP DOING IT IF THE HITTERS DON’T LOOK RIGHT. The goal of using a machine is to learn to crush pitches, in the hitting zone that are as realistic and similar to live pitching as possible.
Pitching machines are worthless unless you use them regularly. As a training aid they have to learn to use it before it helps. If you use it wrong it can cause real damage.
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One way to practice with a machine -- get on time with the heater
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"Get on time with the heater." <a href="https://twitter.com/Dbacks">@Dbacks</a> slugger <a href="https://twitter.com/JakeLamb18">@JakeLamb18</a> talks with <a href="https://twitter.com/byrnes22">@byrnes22</a> about the keys to his hitting, Saturday on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PlayBall?src=hash">#PlayBall</a>! <a href="https://t.co/oheEvFgJuy">pic.twitter.com/oheEvFgJuy</a></p>— MLB Network (@MLBNetwork) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLBNetwork/status/896054106036490242">August 11, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
We are just starting a new season with a new 18U group. We have a tunnel/cage-based hitting practice, tons of swings -- tee into Bownet, tee into open tunnel, front-toss, machine pitch, live pitch.
Right now the girls are "hitting" at these stations. We want them to work toward hitting *good*. Hitting stations are for punishing/driving/lining the ball, not making contact. Whatever station you suck at today, that's the one you work on the most, not the one you avoid. That's how you get better, through the progression of driving the ball when faced with more and more of a challenge when it comes to speed, pitch location, whatever,
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"Get on time with the heater." <a href="https://twitter.com/Dbacks">@Dbacks</a> slugger <a href="https://twitter.com/JakeLamb18">@JakeLamb18</a> talks with <a href="https://twitter.com/byrnes22">@byrnes22</a> about the keys to his hitting, Saturday on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PlayBall?src=hash">#PlayBall</a>! <a href="https://t.co/oheEvFgJuy">pic.twitter.com/oheEvFgJuy</a></p>— MLB Network (@MLBNetwork) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLBNetwork/status/896054106036490242">August 11, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
We are just starting a new season with a new 18U group. We have a tunnel/cage-based hitting practice, tons of swings -- tee into Bownet, tee into open tunnel, front-toss, machine pitch, live pitch.
Right now the girls are "hitting" at these stations. We want them to work toward hitting *good*. Hitting stations are for punishing/driving/lining the ball, not making contact. Whatever station you suck at today, that's the one you work on the most, not the one you avoid. That's how you get better, through the progression of driving the ball when faced with more and more of a challenge when it comes to speed, pitch location, whatever,
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Hitting in a cage is very different than live pitching, front toss, or soft toss. It requires a different set of skills and technique. Learn from the master.
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- Dec 11, 2010
- 4,723
- 113
RichK that video had a couple tidbits in it: was surprised a major leaguer was using a Hack Jr. the smallest, least complicated machine that company makes. Also that the MLB player completely missed the ball a half dozen times when he started using it.
I really like the sound of your hitting plan. Has all the good stuff in it.
I really like the sound of your hitting plan. Has all the good stuff in it.
- Nov 29, 2009
- 2,975
- 83
Here's an observation. How many hitting instructors do you see using a pitching machine? I can't remember the last time, if ever, when I saw one. You'll be doing your DD a favor if you do front toss from behind a net.
Chris Delorit
Member
santirx,
If your daughter is hitting the regular dimpled balls from the pitching machine, it's possible that the balls are floating a bit on her. When those rubber balls are pinched and spun out of those machine wheels, they can typically have quite a bit of backspin. You'd know if she's typically swinging under pitches.
If it's her timing and she's too early or too late relative to a lack of pitching motion, that's pretty normal early in sessions. But, she has to learn to adapt to those challenges. Her game situations will include all kinds of different wind-ups and delivery motions to adapt her plate approach to. So it's a good challenge and good practice.
In either case, it's an education in mental discipline and conquest. It may take 30, or 300 pitches after practice...don't quit until she's satisfied herself and defeated that fear of failure. With the confidence in the extra work, I gaurantee that she will impress herself first and foremost, and her coaches will surely take note in her skill advancement.
My suggestion is for her to view it as a "competitive challenge" in her journey to prowess, rather than an obstacle of hesitation. She can do it!
As a side note, try to get her as much live pitching for live hitting situations as you can. Those pitching machines can be used as situational tools at best, but really shouldn't be a regular substitute for live pitching at any level.
Chris
If your daughter is hitting the regular dimpled balls from the pitching machine, it's possible that the balls are floating a bit on her. When those rubber balls are pinched and spun out of those machine wheels, they can typically have quite a bit of backspin. You'd know if she's typically swinging under pitches.
If it's her timing and she's too early or too late relative to a lack of pitching motion, that's pretty normal early in sessions. But, she has to learn to adapt to those challenges. Her game situations will include all kinds of different wind-ups and delivery motions to adapt her plate approach to. So it's a good challenge and good practice.
In either case, it's an education in mental discipline and conquest. It may take 30, or 300 pitches after practice...don't quit until she's satisfied herself and defeated that fear of failure. With the confidence in the extra work, I gaurantee that she will impress herself first and foremost, and her coaches will surely take note in her skill advancement.
My suggestion is for her to view it as a "competitive challenge" in her journey to prowess, rather than an obstacle of hesitation. She can do it!
As a side note, try to get her as much live pitching for live hitting situations as you can. Those pitching machines can be used as situational tools at best, but really shouldn't be a regular substitute for live pitching at any level.
Chris
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