Hiding the ball
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- Aug 21, 2008
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Tango, why is there a choice? What I mean is, if the goal is to simply "hide the ball" then ok. But if the goal is to hide the ball and use it as part of the motion/delivery, she SHOULD ultimately get even more power. I've said this on many video clips on both authorized and pirated on YouTube, and in my DVD's.. but, ONE of the major problems with swinging the arm back is, the glove hand in 99% of the cases stops at the legs and isn't used. So, swinging one arm back means, only one arm is going to be used to thrust off the rubber and deliver the pitch. Meanwhile, the glove hand does nothing to help with the arms leading the way in the thrust from the rubber. Think of it this way: if I said, stand still and broad jump as far forward as you can, would you swing only 1 arm back for momentum or both? (Hopefully you said both). So, it's the same principal. If she can swing both hands back (in many cases with ball in the glove) then she will push forward with BOTH hands leading the way. But, if she swings only 1 arm back, then she's only going to swing 1 arm forward. Personally, when I pitched at the height of my career, my hands came together at my side to hide the ball from the prying eyes of 3rd base coaches and 3rd base dugouts, then with the ball INSIDE my glove, I would swing both hands backward (in a negative motion) in order to get a much stronger POSITIVE motion as I would "shove the glove" towards the target. While the timing takes some getting used to, ultimately she will throw harder using both halves of her body pushing outward instead of only one arm swinging outward. On top of that, she will not only "hide the ball" but, she'll get more power from both halves, give a better chance of NOT locking her elbow during the backswing, AND drastically cut down the chances of the glove hand swimming... because the longer the ball/hand stays in the glove, the less chance it has to fly out and swim.
In my experience, pitchers who throw "harder" with the back arm swing are doing so because they're using muscle. The OVERWHELMING majority of girls who do this will tell you, if they're honest, that they get sore in the front of their shoulder from the tension and overuse of muscling the pitch. And lets be honest, no 12-14 year old should be sore from pitching!!! Sore means something is being overused. The girls who don't do this, MOST OF THE TIME, can pitch longer, more consecutive games, etc. because they're using their entire body, not the muscle in the shoulder to deliver the pitch.
I know there will be people who point to "Jane Doe" and say, she can pitch all day with a back arm swing, etc. Fine, there are always exceptions that prove the rule. But many of those exceptions are like Jennie Finch, Monica Abbott, etc. and stand 6'2 with long leverage, and dare I say it, are good not BECAUSE of what they do but despite of it.
Bill
In my experience, pitchers who throw "harder" with the back arm swing are doing so because they're using muscle. The OVERWHELMING majority of girls who do this will tell you, if they're honest, that they get sore in the front of their shoulder from the tension and overuse of muscling the pitch. And lets be honest, no 12-14 year old should be sore from pitching!!! Sore means something is being overused. The girls who don't do this, MOST OF THE TIME, can pitch longer, more consecutive games, etc. because they're using their entire body, not the muscle in the shoulder to deliver the pitch.
I know there will be people who point to "Jane Doe" and say, she can pitch all day with a back arm swing, etc. Fine, there are always exceptions that prove the rule. But many of those exceptions are like Jennie Finch, Monica Abbott, etc. and stand 6'2 with long leverage, and dare I say it, are good not BECAUSE of what they do but despite of it.
Bill
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Thanks coach, we bought your DVD's and have used them to really help my DD before ever seeing a PC. She doesn't swing back but has started kinda dangling the ball beside her hip. We started back working on keeping the ball in her glove and pushing her hands toward the target but she lost a little speed.
- Aug 21, 2008
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sometimes losing speed isn't the worst thing in the world. You're initial post said 2 mph, I think the conversation would be different if we were talking about 10 mph. More often than not, when a pitcher throws "flat" pitches that don't move it can be traced back to over throwing. Pitching is a lot like hitting, when you TRY to hit a HR, you never do. When you're not trying, you end up going long ball. Personally, when I threw in games and struggled with movement, my first correction was to take something off and not throw as hard. Get my timing, then build it back up to have both speed and movement.
You got my DVD's? So you're the one who got them!!! Thanks!!! ha ha.
Bill
- Feb 7, 2014
- 553
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Bill, saw you throw to a girl in Richmond, Indiana three years ago at a clinic ?.. behind your back from ~ 50 feet on a 'rope!' I think the catcher was more surprised than I was watching it. Great stuff !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmdnXgcIeJ8
this is our attempt, although I'd like to keep her shoulders square to the plate longer...
this is our attempt, although I'd like to keep her shoulders square to the plate longer...
Thanks. Wow. That girl is hiding it for a really, really long time.
I don't see that a lot, either live at tournaments or in videos. I understand the logic of doing this, but heaven knows I can't tell what pitch is coming with the girls who don't hide the ball. Everything is going way too fast for me to see where their fingers are on the seams and such.
I don't see that a lot, either live at tournaments or in videos. I understand the logic of doing this, but heaven knows I can't tell what pitch is coming with the girls who don't hide the ball. Everything is going way too fast for me to see where their fingers are on the seams and such.
Chris Delorit
Member
uncdrew,
You have to try to remember that reading pitches is a skill that is developed over a period of years in the skill development phase. As a skill, it can serve a very important competitive advantage. The first step is to understand what that purpose is. The second step is to actively develop it. Some will achieve the ability to do so, and others won't. Like you've mentioned, very infrequently will you see it in the girl's game because it's not a competitive skill that's widely known, taught and deployed.
I think you also wanted a clip of something on the lines of hiding the ball. Bill also mentioned above about the need of a pitcher to learn to protect their grip/pitch type from the competition. There's also a bonus in the following clip that will prove the importance of that philosophy. Since the catcher doesn't give anything away, what you will get is a subtle tip from the runner at 2nd to the hitter. So, even with hiding the ball from the batter and the base coach, there's the give away to a 3rd set of prying eyes...the base runner. Can you find both the pick and the relay? Hint: It might have something to do with beginning with the ball outside of the glove, and more importantly the grip once inside of the glove.
Chris
You have to try to remember that reading pitches is a skill that is developed over a period of years in the skill development phase. As a skill, it can serve a very important competitive advantage. The first step is to understand what that purpose is. The second step is to actively develop it. Some will achieve the ability to do so, and others won't. Like you've mentioned, very infrequently will you see it in the girl's game because it's not a competitive skill that's widely known, taught and deployed.
I think you also wanted a clip of something on the lines of hiding the ball. Bill also mentioned above about the need of a pitcher to learn to protect their grip/pitch type from the competition. There's also a bonus in the following clip that will prove the importance of that philosophy. Since the catcher doesn't give anything away, what you will get is a subtle tip from the runner at 2nd to the hitter. So, even with hiding the ball from the batter and the base coach, there's the give away to a 3rd set of prying eyes...the base runner. Can you find both the pick and the relay? Hint: It might have something to do with beginning with the ball outside of the glove, and more importantly the grip once inside of the glove.
Chris
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