How Critical is Brush

Wanted to reply to Java's post......between his original post and my reply, the system wouldn't accept the whole dialog in one piece so here it is in a cut up version. But first understand that Java and I have had some great interactions on pitching and I am certain that the admiration is mutual. I doubt that there are many who understand the bio-mechanics of pitching better than him. Like he suggested, this subject makes for some great chat. So, some more fat to chew on:

javasource said:

Hey now... I've been clicking away up here in NY for years! I did mention something about "crazy coaches"....guess we both qualify... Still hoping we can put something together on this! You ran off to Georgia when we started talking about it! I am ready for a trip to NY before the snow gets to deep....let’s do a clinic. One for pitchers and another for aspiring pitching coaches/dads and moms

As an athlete, I don't always see this in action. Not simply being contrary here... because I can see the application in SOME areas of softball. I definitely agree that when you're training many kids to throw the ball underhand... slowly working through the progressions (for those that require this) is the best way I've witnessed. Well, I just see failure to often when I send a kid back to the mound to correct something or to throw a new pitch and say throw full speed full energy....the bad stuff is back instantly......one book/DVD series that has made a huge impression on me is "The Talent Code"......it really goes into how the nervous system circuits deliver messages to the muscles and how a movement gets ingrained.....what it takes to overcome that ingrained movement. For anyone on this site "The Talent Code" is a remarkable study to check out. My experience has been that the failure is significantly more prevalent when trying to change or correct vs. when learning something brand new.


This said, I recently (little over a year ago) decided to start working with those under the age of 10-11... and added a couple 8 year-old beginners. Both of them are incredibly high-strung, zero attention span, etc... but they both just throw the ball underhand absurdly fast/hard with zero concern about the results. Balls flying everywhere and they're juicing it at 100+%. Think, ADHD on speed. If a pitcher has not had the athleticism coached out of them it is amazing what their bodies naturally do. Fun to watch how nearly flawless some are
For these kids, I couldn't bare to see them slow it down... it was the most exciting aspect in working with them. So... out comes the clicker. I perform ONE fundamental absurdly slow - to show them - and then grab their arm and show them the same move in slowmo. I tell them they get a click if they pull off the one move, no click if they don't. So are you pitching full distance full energy from the mound

. They do it at 100% speed, getting clicks for success and nothing when they miss. I find that it's not that I need slow it down for them, it's that I need to slow down my explanation... and qualify that they understand what I want them to do... and then let them try/train that move at 100% speed. You've certainly got the clicker idea right....the clarity/demo of the explaination is a huge key.

I don't believe (more than willing to be proven wrong) that you can train ballistic movements this way. Question...are you training brand new movements or corrective movements? Might be a difference...what's your experience between the two??

We probably need to define the word "slowly".....certainly it does not mean in a frame by frame type movement. More like something with some energy but not full energy

. So, IMO, spending countless hours spinning the ball backwards is counterproductive to learning the pitch (I am guessing that 50% of the kids trying to spin a ball backwards for the first time fail miserably.....it always amazes me that something that seems so simple is so tuff for a kid to do.....so in these cases I am a proponent of self backspins or backspins to a partner standing behind you....somehow you have to get that backspin feeling)

Part of your curvilinear thoughts... and a product of full-speed repetition/training. I may jumping to a conclusion you aren't suggesting here, but are you having success teaching a riseball throwing it only from the mound at full speed/full energy? What is the success rate of that? This is really an honest question......in most cases teaching the riseball release action is like trying to overcome years of dropball release action muscle memory....it is kind of like trying to correct someone who doesn't get any brush interference......the longer you wait to teach a rise (or to correct lack of brush interference) the more difficult it is. I have found in either case it takes some very deliberate movements/instruction to have a fighting chance
One of the things that obviously taxes those that learn the rise is... at what speed can you throw it at? Typically... it's one of the later pitches learned for many. Very true and kinda as suggested above....this is a mistake unless someone has found that magic formula for quickly overcoming years of ingrained dropball release action)

They've never asked their body to pitch at greater than 80% of total effort (this is like 95% of pitchers out there)? This is definitely a common issue....how many during their practice session when trying to hit their location actually try to hit it when throwing at game speed or try to hit it when throwing at what they would deem warp speed....not many.


This is when teaching the rise became, by comparison... simple for me: Throw through it, not to it. I love that phrase also as long as it doesn't get misinterpreted and detract from the real energy generator......deceleration.......kinda one of those things all us coaches need to be careful of.....gotta make sure the kid fully understands what you are asking them to do. (see Clicker Training)

Would it be wiser to prevent ceilings... teaching kids to learn to pitch with 100% effort from day one... and allow time/repetition and coordination/strength to deliver the 'control'? Here is an interesting contrast: for anyone who has read "The Talent Code" what do you think of when you watch the US Open Tennis Tourney.....can you pronounce any of the last names????? Wonder why? (Only those who have read The Talent Code will have a chance at understanding that last statement.....)

I'm not saying anything is 'wrong' per se... so read this as just two cats sitting down and chatting over a cup of java.... Great chat....need some others to chime in….nothing like good healthy dialog.

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I just want to thank java and RP for taking the time to share their thoughts in such an open and constructive way- not that I get it all! It is nice to see a dialog of contrasting views that does not degenerate into a SNL skit (e.g. Jane Curtin and Dan Ackroyd)

I think one of the hardest things for me as a "parent-coach" for lack of a better word is even thinking HOW to structure DDs practice time- almost all of what she does now- is based on information that I have read from here, from RP site sometimes from CB, from other DVDs- all cobbled together. It is rare that PC would say- here- I think you should structure your practice time this way.

I like the idea of purposeful practice and for one or two of the things that have plagued my DD I have tried to "suggest" that (she is 17, I tread lightly). Her push back is that it messes with her timing- Rick, how can I reply to that ??

Can we discuss bicep brush vs forearm brush. Have you seen any top pitchers that brush their rib cage with their bicep only but do not get any brush from the elbow down to the wrist?

Thanks for taking the time, Rick. A trip to NY would be incredible, I could easily arrange a fullhouse.

I think I'm ready to start wrapping my mind around this conversation! This will be super long and probably broken up into multiple posts...

. Well, I just see failure to often when I send a kid back to the mound to correct something or to throw a new pitch and say throw full speed full energy....the bad stuff is back instantly......one book/DVD series that has made a huge impression on me is "The Talent Code"......it really goes into how the nervous system circuits deliver messages to the muscles and how a movement gets ingrained.....what it takes to overcome that ingrained movement.

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This is an interesting perspective. It’s always neat to compare notes on a book, clinic, lesson, etc… that someone else has completed – as it’s fascinating to me what they take out of it… or how they interpret the larger message. (I feel bad for those not familiar with the book… but hopefully ya’ll get something out of this…). I had to go back to my notes on this book… but here’s a different perspective on the same thought:

You have to fail. You have to fail at the whole pitch…. Before you can break it down into what Coyle calls ‘chunks’. IMO, you can’t deeply practice something unless you understand the depth of the entire thing, and what it feels like both physically and mentally to do it wrong... creating awareness. You can’t break something into ‘chunks’ that doesn't comprise a ‘whole thing'. You can’t fail… unless you’ve tried to succeed. This is why I allow kids to ‘pitch’ when they first meet me. I want to see how they have interpreted what they are trying to imitate: pitching. Even with experienced kids that are learning a pitch like the rise… they come into that session with their own thoughts on what it looks like, what it feels like, and how they are to do it… without me ever telling them anything. Whether it was a lesson from someone else… or what they thought they saw Monica (etc) doing, etc… I need to experience their understanding. Once I have that, I can break it down into chunks that they understand. Otherwise, I’m painting my picture of a rise, and asking them to see my vision… we have no commonality.

When I read that book, Rick… I had some thoughts that constantly ran through my mind… some of them were completely contrasting to many of the stories Coyle shares.

• “I practice… because I’m supposed to”. This is a way of life, not just a saying.
• Focus is a real challenge in American Society.
• Media and American culture (sometimes synonymous) do not favor this sport as much as they do other mindless activities, limiting softball ‘idols’, exposure, etc.
• Will there... or has there - in the context of the book - ever been a hot bed of softball PITCHING in America? I would say the Cat/Monica/Finch/etc years were so... and are we too far removed from this hotbed now?
• Our ‘environments’ are way too sophisticated, high-tech… or in Coyle speak… they are too nice… too pleasant… too ‘easy’… which really saps effort (something I completely agree with).

Getting back to the slow vs. fast topic… I use the clicker, as you know. I break things down into micro pieces FOR ME… making the whole motion progressive. So… although I DO BREAK THE MOTION INTO CHUNKS AND START SLOWLY with some kids… my goal is not to nurture the next piece slowly… it’s to perform that piece and all other subsequent pieces FASTER.

This said, what is perfection of the motion? Take for example, leading with the pinky after 9. Are we aiming for a specific degree of supination… like 20-degrees? No. We are looking for something beyond neutral, where the hand can be slightly inside the ball during release… to ensure that they get the most energy behind it at release. So I don’t obsess over a minute degree… I make sure that there is a degree of supination, so that the pronation reflex (not effort) is greater… and actually takes place. So, once they can exhibit a tendency to perform that motion with consistency… I’m doing exactly what Wooden would do, expect more, immediately. I want it faster… and then I want it faster. It’s when I get them to do it faster… that the reflex occurs… the hand flops over into pronation… versus slowly ‘rolling’ over because of mere awareness/consciousness that it happens.

This is where I found I could break from trying to teach the whole process in slow motion chunks… I would only require that of an articulation or fundamental (that I value) that was missing. I actually work with kids that perform the motion beautifully… and I cringe… because I want them to perform it violently… and within these violent or ballistic motions… is where I see the high-level fundamental often appear… almost like it’s out of thin air.

When I read that book, I did note – but did not agree with- the piano application in softball pitching. Instead, I found that I agreed with this application… (direct quote from my notes): As soon as they can accomplish the feat, quickly add another layer. i.e. “Good. Okay, now do it faster.”

So are you pitching full distance full energy from the mound

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This is a loaded question! The distance depends on the practicality of the motion. Often we're not even throwing a ball, Rick. Sometimes I just want them to air it through. Sometimes I cut a chunk of video and say, do this as you see it, and bring your interpretation to the next session. Sometimes we're working on a drill, sometimes they are rockstars in drill... but blow chunks when they go full pitch. I've found that I cannot merely stop at a breaking point and simply practice that breaking point... I need to include pre and post motion into and out of that breaking point... into the point that I'm clicking. With 8 year-olds... they actually throw at distances of 28-feet out here... so 'full distance' can mean many things. All that said... if the kid is learning one motion... they know that it is not 'fixed' until they can toss it from a distance forward... and that distance is usually a full distance and always at their full effort. Click-training is isolation... the audition of your masterpiece, results take place at full distance.

Question...are you training brand new movements or corrective movements? Might be a difference...what's your experience between the two??

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Brand new movements... I do not teach. I teach corrections. The kid is asked to bring/show their interpretation of the movement. It requires them to think about it and define it. We both refine and edit the movement as necessary... but it's always their movement. It may start out looking like a turd... but they need to know it is a turd... so that they can think about turning it to something else. It's in this recognition... that the correction lies. Sounds canned to some... but that is a really, really important concept that many, many miss. They tend to want to package instruction/pitching. They want you to do what the last successful kid was doing... rather than improve upon what THIS KID is doing.

I've actually never met a kid that did not have an impression of what they thought a pitch looks like.... or had an opinion of what a fundamental/articulation or chunk should look or be performed like.... and I force them to tell me. Even when the motion they perform looks/is horrific... it's so important that I take the time to recognize what they think, acknowledge it... and then refine it.

I am guessing that 50% of the kids trying to spin a ball backwards for the first time fail miserably.....it always amazes me that something that seems so simple is so tuff for a kid to do.....so in these cases I am a proponent of self backspins or backspins to a partner standing behind you....somehow you have to get that backspin feeling

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Let's go Coyle on this point... take a look at this articulation:



I see wrist flexion coupled with supination of the forearm, flexion of the elbow, a lack of internal/external rotation, thumb and middle finger 'pressure', postural tilt from vertical to negative, an index finger running up the front of the spinner, a body that is totally open, the spinner going backwards and a fully supinated forearm finishing position. Some might say this is backchaining... and I would disagree.

Now... take a look at this one:



I see wrist flexion coupled with movement towards neutral position (pronating), flexion of the elbow, internal rotation, only index finger pressure, posture that is set, an index finger running up the inside/back of the ball, a body that is 'closing', and a finish in a completely neutral forearm position... with a hand that is rapidly passing it's more proximal neighbor... the elbow..

So... if I'm trying to create neural circuitry that my body uses to throw a rise... I need to perform the correct articulations of the rise, with the level of detail that creates a circuit that I will repeat 10,000 times.... so that the insulator myelin can grow... turning my 'rise circuitry' into a T3 connection, as opposed to a 3-wire telephone jack. If not, I'm creating another circuit... wired incorrectly... that I will recall... and I will perform.

Now... I can take that same video and show Sarah throwing the spinner forward... and I can start to see the basis of a neural network. The network is nowhere near complete... but it is an articulation that is fired and timed in a similar fashion to the end result... the full pitch. This would be 'chunks'... and an example that I would (and do) ask a pitcher to 'feel' when learning what it's like to work a finger down the ball.

More later... heading to bed!

Rocketech1 said:

Can we discuss bicep brush vs forearm brush. Have you seen any top pitchers that brush their rib cage with their bicep only but do not get any brush from the elbow down to the wrist?

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Good question. Screwball pitchers come to mind... like Nelson and Betsa. Talk more on this later.

Here is an old time read from 1941, which covers Java's and Rick's points regarding practice and learning. Their different points are extremely valid according to this author. In addition if you or your daughter want to learn about playing the piano, this book is very helpful.

"Playing the Piano for Pleasure by Charles Cooke."

I think it's a great read and also very applicable.

Clicker training ....

Um..... Is this thread not yet worthy of being a sticky??? The quality of this dialog between Java and Rick is right up there with the best of best pitching dialogs. If it is made a sticky, might want to change the title to one that fits what they are discussing.

Beat me to it! Better might be a comprehensive how-to manual/DVD for pitching!

There would need to be a 101 or Cliffs Notes version for me, though...



BTW, Thanks to Class for starting another killer thread!

Java
I am going to comment back on a few items......but first of all I am guessing we agree on 90+ percent of what you so eloquently described in the latest thread. Sometimes us coaches say the same thing but use different terminology. I am going to do the "cliff notes version" so I can get to bed at some time tonight......

"You can’t fail… unless you’ve tried to succeed. This is why I allow kids to ‘pitch’ when they first meet me. I want to see how they have interpreted what they are trying to imitate: pitching. Even with experienced kids that are learning a pitch like the rise… they come into that session with their own thoughts on what it looks like, what it feels like, and how they are to do it… without me ever telling them anything. Whether it was a lesson from someone else… or what they thought they saw Monica (etc) doing, etc… I need to experience their understanding. Once I have that, I can break it down into chunks that they understand. Otherwise, I’m painting my picture of a rise, and asking them to see my vision… we have no commonality."
Can't agree with this approach enough....I have also found this to be the best approach.


"Getting back to the slow vs. fast topic… I use the clicker, as you know. I break things down into micro pieces FOR ME… making the whole motion progressive. So… although I DO BREAK THE MOTION INTO CHUNKS AND START SLOWLY with some kids… my goal is not to nurture the next piece slowly… it’s to perform that piece and all other subsequent pieces FASTER."
Great approach......I'll bet because of our dialog there are more people looking at clicker training than ever before. To borrow a line from FFS post above...."the cat is out of the bag"......now that is humor that rivals JJS's.

"This is a loaded question! The distance depends on the practicality of the motion. Often we're not even throwing a ball, Rick. Sometimes I just want them to air it through. Sometimes I cut a chunk of video and say, do this as you see it, and bring your interpretation to the next session. Sometimes we're working on a drill, sometimes they are rockstars in drill... but blow chunks when they go full pitch."
This is the rule rather then the exception when trying to correct a mechanical issue. Talk about a coincidence; this morning I open my email up and have three separate student videos from parents who have pitchers trying to correct an issue......all said the progression drills were working and they see progress but when the pitcher gets back to full distance/full energy the old issues prevails.....not as bad as before but is still there. I viewed their videos and sure enough.....what looked great in drills was not as great from the mound....better but not great yet. One thing I find is that when trying to correct a movement that involves the larger muscle groups it is significantly more difficult........the #1 culprit is the dreaded "butt out posture" causing disconnection and lack of brush interference.

"I see wrist flexion coupled with supination of the forearm, flexion of the elbow, a lack of internal/external rotation, thumb and middle finger 'pressure', postural tilt from vertical to negative, an index finger running up the front of the spinner, a body that is totally open, the spinner going backwards and a fully supinated forearm finishing position. Some might say this is backchaining... and I would disagree."
We really don't disagree on the similarity of the spinner drill/riseball drill and I think we both are on board that any drills should replicate as close as possible what happens in the full motion/high energy pitch......here is the one thing I do know. I have a ton of data on self spin rates, backspin spin rates, K position spin rates, and mound spin rates on the riseball. There is a close correlation to increases in each. For kids that are natural riseball spinners I skip the self and backspin drills....but for those challenged I use all four mentioned above. As a side note, I rarely use the spinner shown in the drill.....Sarah does use it a lot so she wins out sometimes. The spin rate measurements mentioned above are all with a RevFire ball.