I think HE is more like cricket bowling.
Hitting hip and throwing inside
- Thread starter guyonabuffalo
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I want to add that very few of my beginners throw backspin on their overhand throws, it's mostly bullet.
I would dare say that the "swim" is a newer technique that is taught with pitchers that are more closed/hips facing the catcher when they release the ball versus an older technique where the ball is released with the hips more open. In the older technique, the arm is taught to stay inline.
For reasons that I'd like to not get into here, yes I had enough confidence in her current pitching coach to change this dynamic. Unfortunately, it hasn't lead to the best result for my DD. Pitching, like hitting, is individual to the player and different techniques will work for some but not all.
This has been my experience as well while coaching, it's bananas to me. As a youngster, I always threw an overhand throw with backspin and so did most of the people that I played with.
- Dec 28, 2023
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As I said previously I am new to fastpitch pitching and its terminology.
One of my favorite sayings with respect to coordinated body movements is "everything depends upon everything".
How the body creates movement patterns is the study of motor learning and control. One of the concepts in motor learning with respect to how the body creates movement is the concept of "coordinated structures". Some would call it muscle memory. Point being for the body to efficiently effect the movement goal requires a coordinated sequence of ALL body parts that contribute to the final movement goal.
From that perspective you don't teach the swim move. The swim move is an integral part of the overall movement sequence (final movement goal) and is not a "standalone" movement pattern. In other words is not taught in isolation of the overall movement pattern that it is part of.
An integral part of the swim move is the abduction (pinching back) of the shoulders in preparation for bringing the shoulders forwards (adducting).
This abducting-abducting sequence is characteristics of virtually all high level fastpitch pitchers. I will also say from my investigations it appears to be an integral part of the IR throwing process. Much less so for HE.
if anyone is more interested in better understanding this there is some good discussion at:
Arm whip
What does it mean for you, 1) How is it created? and 2) how would you explain it to a student?
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- Dec 28, 2023
- 53
- 18
While I'm at "it" and really a topic for another completely different discussion is the concept of "Brush interference" as a applied to fastpitch pitching.
The reason I bring the concept of "Brush interference" is because this player is hitting their hip as they deliver the ball. But in her case if it is her hand that is hitting her hip than she is not exhibiting " Brush interference" as its defined.
The main justification for Brush interference is the belief that it adheres to the transfer of momentum principle i.e. that slowing down of the upper arm transfers the upper on momentum to the forearm/wrist hand. This is incorrect.
By its definition brush means a collision of the upper arm and body. Any collision of two objects unless it is completely elastic decreases the overall momentum of the system because of energy that is lost in the collision process. So momentum of the overall arm system is decreased with the collision of the upper arm to the body.
What actually CAN happen and I emphasize the word "CAN" is that the total system of arm-forearm-wrist-hand is moving at the same speed just prior to the Brush. But what also is critical to this is that each segment is jointed and actually can move freely on its own. Initially it's moving as a unified system.
But when contact of the upper arm occurs to the body the upper arm slows down but because of the joint action at the elbow the forearm will change its radius of rotation from that being in unison with the upper arm shoulder joint to the elbow joint itself.
Therefore the forearm/hand will continue on with its own individual momentum which is the same as what it was before the Brush but with a totally different radius of rotation. Rotation is now occurring around the elbow joint and not the upper shoulder joint.
This is the same as what would be called the "tetherball effect". Think of a tetherball attached to a rope which is winding around a vertical pole. As the rope gets shorter the rotational speed of the tetherball increases due to conservation of its momentum.
Theoretically this is what happens with the Brush. The upper arm slows down which changes the radius of rotation of the forearm because of its joint at the elbow in the form wants to continue on with the same momentum (but higher rotational speed) it had when it was rigidly connected to the upper arm.
That being said I do not believe there is a simple collision effect that occurs with the brush. I believe there is a neural component whereby the body is telling the upper arm to slow down on its own which is occurring either as a result of the brush or in conjunction with the brush or in preparation for the brush. Again one of the integral complexities (mysteries) of how the human body nervous system functions to create goal directed movement
The reason I bring the concept of "Brush interference" is because this player is hitting their hip as they deliver the ball. But in her case if it is her hand that is hitting her hip than she is not exhibiting " Brush interference" as its defined.
The main justification for Brush interference is the belief that it adheres to the transfer of momentum principle i.e. that slowing down of the upper arm transfers the upper on momentum to the forearm/wrist hand. This is incorrect.
By its definition brush means a collision of the upper arm and body. Any collision of two objects unless it is completely elastic decreases the overall momentum of the system because of energy that is lost in the collision process. So momentum of the overall arm system is decreased with the collision of the upper arm to the body.
What actually CAN happen and I emphasize the word "CAN" is that the total system of arm-forearm-wrist-hand is moving at the same speed just prior to the Brush. But what also is critical to this is that each segment is jointed and actually can move freely on its own. Initially it's moving as a unified system.
But when contact of the upper arm occurs to the body the upper arm slows down but because of the joint action at the elbow the forearm will change its radius of rotation from that being in unison with the upper arm shoulder joint to the elbow joint itself.
Therefore the forearm/hand will continue on with its own individual momentum which is the same as what it was before the Brush but with a totally different radius of rotation. Rotation is now occurring around the elbow joint and not the upper shoulder joint.
This is the same as what would be called the "tetherball effect". Think of a tetherball attached to a rope which is winding around a vertical pole. As the rope gets shorter the rotational speed of the tetherball increases due to conservation of its momentum.
Theoretically this is what happens with the Brush. The upper arm slows down which changes the radius of rotation of the forearm because of its joint at the elbow in the form wants to continue on with the same momentum (but higher rotational speed) it had when it was rigidly connected to the upper arm.
That being said I do not believe there is a simple collision effect that occurs with the brush. I believe there is a neural component whereby the body is telling the upper arm to slow down on its own which is occurring either as a result of the brush or in conjunction with the brush or in preparation for the brush. Again one of the integral complexities (mysteries) of how the human body nervous system functions to create goal directed movement
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OP's dauther is throwing IR with whip in those videos. Brush may be missing, but brush and whip are not mutually exclusive.
If one was to define a HE/IR hybrid as a pitcher internally rotating the shoulder but pitching with a straight arm (regardless of the finish position, which really is irrelevant), that's what the vast majority of pitchers are doing. From what I've seen after a ton of online viewing and watching or coaching a ton of games from all secondary school levels, very few throwers are actually turning the ball toward the back and snapping the wrist at the finish. Most of them are only missing the elbow bend and whip. Many are TAUGHT to turn to the rear and snap the wrist, but most of them don't do it. It's not natural and coaches who teach HE mechanics don't even realize--or possibly just dont care as long as the ball is getting there--that it's not happening. Despite it not being the best way to get maximum performance, most kids are throwing without whip and many, many of them are getting 55+ mph, which can take a player a long way.
The easiest answer as to which is best (and generally regarded as biomechanically most safe) is to watch video of any high-level pitcher in slow motion. D1 college, and probably a majority of D2 are throwing IR with whip. You will not find a D1 or professional pitcher throwing without whip. That's the answer. A ton of instructors who played at a high level and threw with whip are instructing ball rear facing, wrist snap and HE finish. They don't realize they stopped doing that probably a few months into their lessons.
- Dec 28, 2023
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- 18
One "additional" observation regarding "swim".
From Symmetry and Biomechanics:
The symmetrical structure and function of the human body is essential for performing safe, efficient, and purposeful movements in sport, at the workplace, or during the activities of daily life. Asymmetries in motor abilities and function are especially prevalent among athletes, and are related to decreased performance and movement efficiency. Asymmetries can be local (involving a single joint, muscle, or body part) or global (complex movement patterns involving the whole/majority of the body). Structural and functional asymmetries may lead to overload of the musculoskeletal system during cyclic (e.g., running and cycling) or discrete (e.g., jump) movements; however, the cause–effect relationships between asymmetries and injury risk have not been established.
From Symmetry and Biomechanics:
The symmetrical structure and function of the human body is essential for performing safe, efficient, and purposeful movements in sport, at the workplace, or during the activities of daily life. Asymmetries in motor abilities and function are especially prevalent among athletes, and are related to decreased performance and movement efficiency. Asymmetries can be local (involving a single joint, muscle, or body part) or global (complex movement patterns involving the whole/majority of the body). Structural and functional asymmetries may lead to overload of the musculoskeletal system during cyclic (e.g., running and cycling) or discrete (e.g., jump) movements; however, the cause–effect relationships between asymmetries and injury risk have not been established.
As I understand it, the primary reason for brush (of the forearm a few inches below the bend) is a reference point for accuracy. Anchoring to the same spot every time. not a collision so much as an actual brush-by, allowing a consistent location and trigger to release the ball. The wrist/hand do the work of moving the ball while coordinating with the eyes on where to locate the ball. 1 degree of change in hand (or anywhere else) position equates to 7-ish inches by the time the ball crosses the plate. You need a consistent arm reference point to allow the the wrist/hand/eye to do what they do without outside influence.
And all of that begins with drive, stable landing (front side resistance), and consistent, statuesque posture. Everything prior to release is setting up energy transfer ending in a "perfectly" stable platform for the final act of release. It's like a pitching machine with a rotating arm. Loosen that mount, or have a flaw in the moving parts causing instability or inconsistency in the path, and the pitches will go all over the place.
