Double Base question

[obbay]

ASA, 14U- using a double base at 1B. orange bag on foul side is for baserunner, white bag in fair territory is for fielder.
Batter hits the ball, catcher fields it and throws to 1B who makes the out on the wrong (orange) bag. Runner is called out. I question the play and ump says 1B can receive the ball on the orange bag if that's the side where the catcher was throwing from.

I just realized that the answer didn't quite sit well with me because the catcher would have had to field the ball and go into foul territory to make the throw (or field the ball in foul territory).

I may be confusing LL rules with ASA rules with local rules. I don't know if ASA even gets into using the double bag.

Can anyone shed some light on this topic?
I have always taught my players to run to 1B on the foul side of the line- are they supposed to just run to whatever side the 1Bman is not?

When playing 1B, I tell my 1B that if she can't see the catcher throwing, she needs to step away from the bag to create a clear line of sight between the two. then tag the base when you have the ball.

 

[Comp]

You are correct in that the defense must use the white portion of the base, but it does make an exception for force out attempts coming from foul territory. How far out into fair territory did the batter hit the ball?

 

[tcannizzo]

You are correct in that the defense must use the white portion of the base, but it does make an exception for force out attempts coming from foul territory. How far out into fair territory did the batter hit the ball?

There is also another exception that allows defense to use the orange bag on a throw that pulls the defender away from the white base.

 

[BretMan]

The defense can use the colored base to complete the putout of a batter-runner when:

- The throw is coming from the foul side of the first base line.

- The fielder tagging the base had to go into foul territory to retrieve the ball.

- An errant throw pulls the fielder from the white to the colored base.

When the defense uses the colored base, the runner may use either the white or colored portion.

It's not clear if any of that actually happened on this play. If none of it did, then the runner should not have been out.

 

[Umpire]

You are correct in that the defense must use the white portion of the base, but it does make an exception for force out attempts coming from foul territory. How far out into fair territory did the batter hit the ball?

I know you didn't just imply that you can have a force out at 1st base...

 

[Comp]

I know you didn't just imply that you can have a force out at 1st base...

Only stating exactly what the rule book says. ASA 8-2-M-4 On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base..... So if you dont like it take it up with those that write the rules.

 

[Chance42]

I know you didn't just imply that you can have a force out at 1st base...

Failure to tag up on a caught fly ball in foul territory, and a situation where the ball is fair before it rolls past the bag and then goes foul, to be picked up by a player who then steps on the orange bag? I've seen arguments to the effect that those situations are not technically a "force", though, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue either way, but I assume it is these types of things the rule is referring to?

 

[BretMan]

It is a nit-picking technicality of the rules. By strict definition, touching first base while holding the ball to retire a batter-runner is not force out. It looks like a force out, as most force outs are made by tagging a base. It has the same effect as a force out, with respect to runs scoring or not when it's made with two outs. But it's not technically a force out, even though the rule book lazily refers to it as one in some points, contrary to its own definition, probably just as a form of literary shorthand.

The only people that seem to get too worked up about it are umpires on internet discussion boards.

Here's a "cut and paste" of a reply I posted on another forum just a few days ago when this same question came up:

You can't have a force out at first base, at least not as it is defined in the rule book. A force out is when a runner is forced to advance by the batter becoming a batter-runner. A runner is a player who is already occupying first, second or third base.

The player running to first base here is not a runner, not by the rule book definition. He is a batter-runner and as such the definition of a "force play" does not apply to him.

There's a separate rule that covers batter-runners not safely attaining first base. It's right next to the rule about runs not scoring if the third out is a force out.

It's a separate rule because it covers all of the other ways a batter-runner might make an out before reaching first, such as on a caught fly ball or by committing an act of interference.

In layman's terms, if you say that the batter-runner was "forced" at first base, everybody will probably know what you're talking about. It walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...but it's not really a force out and it's covered by a separate rule.

And by the way...retiring a runner who left base early on a caught fly ball is NEVER a force out. Whenever the batter is put out before safely attaining first base, as on a caught fly ball, you can't have a force out at any other base because the runners are no longer forced to advance.

 

[Umpire]

Only stating exactly what the rule book says. ASA 8-2-M-4 On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base..... So if you dont like it take it up with those that write the rules.

I already have. It's one of the many inconsistencies in the rules book.

 

[BretMan]

The ump at our first game with the double bag recommended that if the fielder takes the orange back, the runner take the other one. That is the whole point of having them he said. He made a good point that common sense is the higher rule.

But it's not required and it's not the rule, so really your umpire probably shouldn't be suggesting it. This is kind of like when before a game an umpire "suggests" that teams always use a courtesy runner, to keep the game moving along quicker. They don't have to. Let the teams play to the rule however they see fit.

The problem you have with requiring the runner to switch to the white bag is that runners will generally be running straight to the orange one, like they're supposed to. If the fielder suddenly, at the last instant, gets pulled to the colored base, the runner isn't expected to make a split-second course correction, one that might not even be possible depending on how close to base the runner is.

So the rule says that runners MAY switch over in these cases. Personally, I would also recommend that they do switch if it's at all possible to do so safely. But they aren't required to and if it's a game I'm umpiring I'm not going to suggest it to the teams. That is a coaching issue and I leave that up to the coaches.