similar but not the same

[Wellphyt]

Mankin is responding to a slightly different question in this clip, but in the process he covers the PBP.




Ichiro has different swings. IMO the one posted in the original post shows him with his weight at contact slightly forward of center; whereas Ruth has his weight centered to slightly back of center. IOW, Ruth hits slightly further back on his axis than Ichiro does in that particular clip. Ruth makes contact with a straight front leg, Ichiro makes contact with a flexed front leg.



I've seen clips of Ichiro with his weight more centered and his front leg straight at contact, similar to Ruth; but this isn't one of those clips.

 

[HYP]

I actually see some agreement on a few things, some were just strongly discussioning word organization.
But, do hitters snap the knee back, just at contact to get that extra pop?

Ichiro has different swings for different situations. These guys have plenty of skill sets.
Heck, during the world series the some guy pulled out a 3 step slap, perfect execution, on 90 foot base path, dove, was safe, but called out.

Again, do some snap the knee, for extra snap??

IMO, the knee gets snapped back. The leg is not straightening. It gets straightened. It is applying force to keep from falling. As the front hip moves away from the front foot the lead leg straightens. It is not a perfectly timed push back.

IMO, it is a similar situation to the front foot getting down. Does the front foot get put down by the front leg? Or does the front foot get down because of something else? So, do you try to time the front foot getting down or do you allow the swing to put the front foot down?

Do you try to time the lead leg straightening or do you allow it to straighten?

I guess you could say it is pushing. If there is energy being applied into the front leg and it is firm. It is pushing against the earth to keep from collapsing. I would assume that the earth is pushing back. (I am not a physics nut). Can you say that that is pushing in the sense that I would think of pushing? Or that you would think of pushing? Not for me. I consider it creating dynamic balance. I am not trying to straighten the lead leg. I am just maintaining a firm lead leg.

For me, if I had to push from the back, block with the front and then time the push back with the front leg. That would be to much to rely on. I just power from the back side. Similar to the one leg golfer.

I probably could generate more bat speed by applying the push block push method if everything lined up perfectly but what is the trade off. How much bat speed do you need to generate. I believe Pujols is around 85 mph bat speed. I am more concerned with adjust ability and quickness at which the barrel can be launched. Also, how deep I can let the ball travel and at what rate do I square up balls.

JMO

 

[Wellphyt]

I could answer, but that would break my rule of ignoring all of your posts.

Also you might check the timelines, everything my teacher friend has posted is a response to what I have posted to you, not vice versa.

LOL. I already figured you weren't going to answer my question. If there's one thing I'm an expert on, it's your teacher friend. He's very predictable. That's ok; Jbooth, myself and I'm sure a few others on here know the answer to my question, and we know what that answer means within the context of this thread.

 

[redhotcoach]

LOL. I already figured you weren't going to answer my question. If there's one thing I'm an expert on, it's your teacher friend. He's very predictable. That's ok; Jbooth, myself and I'm sure a few others on here know the answer to my question, and we know what that answer means within the context of this thread.

Do you think it is because he doesn't have his heel planted before he swings, like you told the 18 gold girl was wrong with her swing, to which I provided video of MLB players that didn't have their heel planted before swinging.

Or maybe it's is because he turns in his rear leg before his hips, like you said "Ted would never do." To which I provided video...several...of Ted's leg turning before his hip.

It could be one of several other things you made up, posted a full page novel about, and still pictures of hitters, that when I was kind enough to show the video of the pictures, it proved to be a load of bull. Which as always you changed the subject.

I was done with this thread...Push Block Push is a technique that has been taught. Everyone of this discussion sites blew up when the Doc got on, then disappeared because the Hanson Principle proved easily that is not what happens. Now Jim says it is not a "how" but a"what", not a technique, but what happens in any swing. Which I personally think is an attempt to distance himself from the proven wrong teaching of pbp. I agree that that in a high level swing there is a push of sorts, a block, and a push. BUT I have proved that PBP is not what causes or starts rotation. Jim said that it was never to be literally push block swing and push, that I mis understand. I know I didn't mis understand, but his description of a swing at that point in this thread was solid (he even said that 'my coil and ir' fit into that). So as I felt calling it PBP added confusion, (since it IS A TECHNIQUE that was taught), his swing description was matching video. Thanks for encouraging me back in Well.

As I said...there is block and push back in a swing...but it is not what causes or starts rotation. As you are reaching for that Ich doesn't push back as hard as Babe.

Hear is a clip from the video of PBP being taught. He pushes into a block....then swings. I posted the vid the way it is on the youtube, I didn't add the pauses or draw the lines.

Now Well...you can make a decision...you can let me go back to ignoring you, or you can allow me to test and show everything you write on here with the Hanson Principle (it won't look good for you).

 

[jbooth]

Do you really see push back in the front leg on this swing?

I certainly do. If he doesn't push back, how does his head stay centered? How does he turn the momentum from the back leg drive, into rotation? It's a push back in the absolute physics sense, not necessarily a conscious thought.

His leg lands bent and then straightens, do you agree? Due to geometry, physics and bio-mechanics, that straightening creates a push into the pelvis. How does his pelvis get turned so that his belly-button faces the pitcher, if there is no force pushing the front hip out and back?

 

[Greenmonsters]

I certainly do. If he doesn't push back, how does his head stay centered? How does he turn the momentum from the back leg drive, into rotation? It's a push back in the absolute physics sense, not necessarily a conscious thought.

His leg lands bent and then straightens, do you agree? Due to geometry, physics and bio-mechanics, that straightening creates a push into the pelvis. How does his pelvis get turned so that his belly-button faces the pitcher, if there is no force pushing the front hip out and back?[/QUOTE]

If the rear hip/pelvis is rotating clockwise (in the case of a LH batter), and the front leg also pushes the front hip/pelvis clockwise (i.e., in the same direction), what stops the hitter's rotation???

 

[jbooth]

IMO, the knee gets snapped back. The leg is not straightening. It gets straightened. It is applying force to keep from falling. As the front hip moves away from the front foot the lead leg straightens. It is not a perfectly timed push back.

IMO, it is a similar situation to the front foot getting down. Does the front foot get put down by the front leg? Or does the front foot get down because of something else? So, do you try to time the front foot getting down or do you allow the swing to put the front foot down?

Do you try to time the lead leg straightening or do you allow it to straighten?

I guess you could say it is pushing. If there is energy being applied into the front leg and it is firm. It is pushing against the earth to keep from collapsing. I would assume that the earth is pushing back. (I am not a physics nut). Can you say that that is pushing in the sense that I would think of pushing? Or that you would think of pushing? Not for me. I consider it creating dynamic balance. I am not trying to straighten the lead leg. I am just maintaining a firm lead leg.

For me, if I had to push from the back, block with the front and then time the push back with the front leg. That would be to much to rely on. I just power from the back side. Similar to the one leg golfer.

I probably could generate more bat speed by applying the push block push method if everything lined up perfectly but what is the trade off. How much bat speed do you need to generate. I believe Pujols is around 85 mph bat speed. I am more concerned with adjust ability and quickness at which the barrel can be launched. Also, how deep I can let the ball travel and at what rate do I square up balls.

JMO

The block and push back isn't timed. You're right that it is mostly a natural reaction in order to keep your head centered, keep your balance, and finish the hip rotation, but that doesn't mean that you ignore the laws of physics and bio-mechanics. There is a push (a force) going up the leg into the hip socket, which pushes the hip out and back. That may seem natural to you, but it does transfer force to the bat.

Young kids who are just learning, often don't use the legs at all, and what is the result? No power. Then they start to learn to push and use the legs, but often collapse the front knee. What is the result? No finish of the hip turn and loss of potential power.

The legs turn the torso, and the turning torso puts energy into moving the bat. Without that, all you have is arm and wrist power.

The one legged guys have to work twice as hard to get rotation, because they only have one leg. You have to get rotation somehow, or you will get very little acceleration of the bat.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Anyone else ever get this feeling?

 

[jbooth]

I certainly do. If he doesn't push back, how does his head stay centered? How does he turn the momentum from the back leg drive, into rotation? It's a push back in the absolute physics sense, not necessarily a conscious thought.

His leg lands bent and then straightens, do you agree? Due to geometry, physics and bio-mechanics, that straightening creates a push into the pelvis. How does his pelvis get turned so that his belly-button faces the pitcher, if there is no force pushing the front hip out and back?

If the rear hip/pelvis is rotating clockwise (in the case of a LH batter), and the front leg also pushes the front hip/pelvis clockwise (i.e., in the same direction), what stops the hitter's rotation???

Uh, anatomical structure, articulation limitations, and the laws of physics. The weight is centered between the feet, the momentum is angular, and the legs are in an anatomical position that inhibits any further rotation.

I can't believe you actually can't figure that out on your own.

 

[HYP]

I certainly do. If he doesn't push back, how does his head stay centered? How does he turn the momentum from the back leg drive, into rotation? It's a push back in the absolute physics sense, not necessarily a conscious thought.

His leg lands bent and then straightens, do you agree? Due to geometry, physics and bio-mechanics, that straightening creates a push into the pelvis. How does his pelvis get turned so that his belly-button faces the pitcher, if there is no force pushing the front hip out and back?

I have to go to practice but...

If the rear hip is moving forward and the lead hip is off of its center line, so it doesn't slide forward. Which way will the front hip move? Will it move the opposite direction of the rear hip? So, Right handed batter. If I stand in the box with my toes of my right foot facing the plate. Now I stand on my back leg only. Left leg in a flamingo pose. Now pivot your right hip around on top of the rear leg. So your belly button faces the pitcher without moving your foot. Which way did the front hip move?

Now, do the in the context of a swing. The torso is pivoting around the rear femur. The rear femur maybe moving forward. So, now the rear hip is moving forward while pivoting around the femur. That is why Bonds front hip doesn't seem to move back as far as the rear hip moves forward.

I may be wrong with the femur stuff. I think that is what that bone is called.

That is how I see the hips working. The lead leg is keeping you from falling forward. It is supplying enough pressure to catch the swing. If that is the push back you are talking about then we are good and on the same page.