Which one would go farther?

[Eric F]

Mann, I've explained this to you multiple times. Even gave you a source to read on the topic ... also multiple times. You keep asking the same question, but how interested are you when you don't seem to read the answer? I could actually respect you disagreeing ... which wouldn't change the answer mind you, but it would at least demonstrate an acknowledgement that you gave the notion some thought.

I have no idea what you mean by "or Zero max speed travel distance?" When you throw a ball, when is it at maximum velocity? Answer ... at release. When you windmill a ball, when is it at maximum velocity? Answer ... at release. When you throw a barrel, when is it at Maximum velocity? At release. These 'released' objects are the result of a dynamic throwing process ... they do not "maintain" a peak velocity.

Perhaps what is confusing is that you read of the ball being on the bat for a fixed amount of time. Keep in mind that technically the barrel reached peak velocity just prior to impact, and is actually already decelerating on impact. The duration of peak velocity that you wish to know about is prior to impact ... and has little to do with the duration of the bat/ball collision time.

Regarding this ... "If you are getting your bat up to max speed, and then guiding it, or its better to be late than early top max. " ... It is 'around' to 'along' ... the 'along' is largely about 'direction'. It is not the case that you get the bat up to maximum velocity, which is virtually at impact (actually just prior to impact, but very close to impact), and then guide it ... the direction was already established ... the throw of the barrel through impact is with 'direction'.

It is not good to be late, or early, in terms of obtaining maximum barrel speed ... it is best to use a sequence which has the barrel obtaining maximum velocity virtually 'at' impact (technically just prior to impact).

Maximum barrel speed will be realized during the release ... which should occur into impact.

He meant that the barrel's max speed is a single point in time, rather than a duration of time.

The comparison to throwing is good. The barrel is accelerated to max speed and then released to impact. Once release occurs, there are no longer forces on the handle that will continue acceleration or maintain speed. The only other option is that the barrel will begin to decelerate. The hitter isn't TRYING to decelerate the barrel to impact. It just happens because it has been released. (correct, FFS?)

Now, mann's contention is that a firm grip on the handle is recommended to resist deflections and get the most from less-than-perfect contact. However, a firm grip through contact would (IMO) inhibit the ability for an efficient release.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

A firm grip is not necessary for what Mann wishes to achieve ... the top hand "catches the whip" and is still in a powerful orientation going into impact.

Firm wrists through impact will inhibit maximum obtainable barrel speed.

 

[Eric F]

A firm grip is not necessary for what Mann wishes to achieve ... the top hand "catches the whip" and is still in a powerful orientation going into impact.

Firm wrists through impact will inhibit maximum obtainable barrel speed.

One of us is not understanding that mann is saying about resisting deflections. Could be me.

My mistake. I said a firm grip would inhibit release. This isn't necessarily true. You could have a firm grip and not firm wrists. Firm wrists would definitely inhibit release.

 

[FP26]

One of us is not understanding that mann is saying about resisting deflections. Could be me.

I'm sure most here have seen the famous gif of Todd Frazier "releasing" the entire bat into contact. Does anyone have a gif of contact that was not squared up like Frazier's?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

One of us is not understanding that mann is saying about resisting deflections. Could be me.

My mistake. I said a firm grip would inhibit release. This isn't necessarily true. You could have a firm grip and not firm wrists. Firm wrists would definitely inhibit release.

Correct ... your said "firm grip" ... and I responded with a comment regarding "wrist" tension. Why? Like you said ... they are different ... yet many people that firm up their grip end up tensing up their wrists.

On the topic of Mann's "resisting deflections" ... he said he was going to input the content of a link ... but he punted.

 

[mann]

Correct ... your said "firm grip" ... and I responded with a comment regarding "wrist" tension. Why? Like you said ... they are different ... yet many people that firm up their grip end up tensing up their wrists.

On the topic of Mann's "resisting deflections" ... he said he was going to input the content of a link ... but he punted.

"At the higher velocities more appropriate to the game of baseball, vf is shown to coincide
with the rigid-body value only over a very small region in the barrel of the bat and to drop off
sharply for impacts removed from that region".

"At these low-impact speeds, the collision time is quite
long ~;2.2 ms!" (under 90mph)

"Any clamping action of the hands will not affect
the bat at the impact location until one round trip, or about
1.0–1.2 ms, by which time the ball and bat have just started
to separate (at 90mph plus, BLACKOUT SWING)
This is baseball wood bat impact, softball bat / softball is MUCH LONGER.

How about this statement...". It is evident that the handle does not start to respond
until about 0.5–0.6 ms after the initial contact, at
which time the transfer of momentum to the ball is nearly
complete"

Baseball bat/ball Softball bat/ball "The contact time between the softball and softball bat is longer than it is for a baseball (hardball) and bat. (a little less than two frames of the movie)" from http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/ball-bat-0.html


What i gather is if you dampen the vibrations, you get more energy into the ball.

 

[mann]

Correct ... your said "firm grip" ... and I responded with a comment regarding "wrist" tension. Why? Like you said ... they are different ... yet many people that firm up their grip end up tensing up their wrists.

On the topic of Mann's "resisting deflections" ... he said he was going to input the content of a link ... but he punted.

Loose wrists firm fingers

 

[ian]

Firm grip with the wrists in a strong position. Grip matters.

It would be interesting to see the time of contact between a 65mph bat and a 55mph pitch. Or a 50mph bat and a 42mph pitch. Time of contact would be much longer than 2.2ms IMO.

 

[ian]

Damn mobile device

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

"At the higher velocities more appropriate to the game of baseball, vf is shown to coincide
with the rigid-body value only over a very small region in the barrel of the bat and to drop off
sharply for impacts removed from that region".

"At these low-impact speeds, the collision time is quite
long ~;2.2 ms!" (under 90mph)

"Any clamping action of the hands will not affect
the bat at the impact location until one round trip, or about
1.0–1.2 ms, by which time the ball and bat have just started
to separate (at 90mph plus, BLACKOUT SWING)
This is baseball wood bat impact, softball bat / softball is MUCH LONGER.

How about this statement...". It is evident that the handle does not start to respond
until about 0.5–0.6 ms after the initial contact, at
which time the transfer of momentum to the ball is nearly
complete"

Baseball bat/ball Softball bat/ball "The contact time between the softball and softball bat is longer than it is for a baseball (hardball) and bat. (a little less than two frames of the movie)" from What happens when ball meets bat?


What i gather is if you dampen the vibrations, you get more energy into the ball.

See if this link works for obtaining the article.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAahUKEwi11o3jnqTHAhUJL4gKHXkJAJ4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbaseball.physics.illinois.edu%2Fcollision.ps&ei=VJnLVbXcJYneoAT5koDwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFSvwjreNyul2MWGBMI4M5xp93Ewg&sig2=gMgv6XfY9tKVxIU4q0LilQ&bvm=bv.99804247,d.cGU

If not, then try this link ... Dynamics of the baseball–bat collision - ResearchGate.