Understanding the real "enemy"
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Wellphypt
We have no issues and it is all good as to discussion with me also.
In my opinion the MLB Elite Swing is still being discussed and the blue print has not yet been written by anyone yet! But there sure are a lot of opinions on which way is best isn't there?
Especially by the male coaches and baseball people and sites....just maybe Coach Enquist will take a shot at it again on how to further break it down here in the near future!
It is like attending church...go to a church and pick a faith of your choice and if you feel spiritually connected and feel like you got your internal battery recharged on Friday, Saturday or Sunday based on your faith, then go with your God! At least you chose to get involved and follow something you believe in! Amen! and Hallelujah!
Wellphyt said. "IMO it’s unimportant if you agree with Mankin’s explanation of how MLB players hit in a long zone. The important point for me is that the best players in MLB do something different with their hands and forearms which allow them to hit in a long zone. I see fastpitch players like Bustos using their hands and forearms in a similar fashion."
I like to describe it as the big zone and explain it that way. In a clinic we put a lot of focus on getting into the big zone as quickly as possible so the kids can see it and what they do with their hands and elbows to get there.
Crystl did not play softball until she was 14 I think and up to that point played baseball and was also a pitcher for baseball and still does well as to pitching. She threw out a pitch at a Reds home game hard enough that it caught the catcher off guard and he stumbled backwards and the crowd laughed! He was not expecting a girl to have the velocity or control off the mound at 60 feet!
We string a piece of caution tape from the net about ten feet long to the tee at an angle and call the caution tape the path of the ball or plane of the incoming pitch and put a home plate in the area of five feet and directly under the caution tape. We use the spring loaded clothes pins and measure where the bat enters over the caution tape and where it leaves the caution tape and measure the difference.
Usually the first attempt is 35 to 40 inches and we use the hand path device to focus more on the lead elbow touching the end and directing the knob forward which means they had to turn and tilt or the knob will not get there and the check point is where is the elbow and hand at connection? We can put them into the position to feel it as they do it!
We have taught them to measure off from the plate, how to balance, and what a ready and set position is and why we use it.
We separate to toe touch, elbows.... back elbow lowers as lead elbow is moving forward and up like it is going up a ramp and the elbow and hand are at a check point to see if they are stacked over each other (lined up) just a little forward of the back hip area. ( Important point is there must be sufficient area for the elbow to clear the hip and breast and another point is their shoulders are narrower and rounded unlike the male which has wide shoulders ) The knob is leading and the bat is not parallel yet and then we say parallel to contact and it is in our lane, the area between our toes to home plate with the knob leading the barrel (bat lag) and we release the barrel to contact and through and finish.
As the improvements are made they quickly get to 45 to 55 inches and are amazed at how simple it is when allowed to see visually where the bat is going verses trying to power the ball at 100 % off the tee.
It is done slow and deliberately even off the tee and we try to get them to just flip the ball into the tee while building a base to work from and then introduce them to the hand over drill so they start to finish properly right away!
AP's big zone is 60 inches and Bustos was measured this past weekend at 72 inches and AP's bat speed is 86.99 MPH and Bustos was 79 MPH. Hand path looked pretty close however!
This is so over looked as everyone thinks the girls function the same as the boys and 160 hitters plus parents and coaches got an opportunity to see it is not the same and the blue print for teaching it is not the same either as to how to teach it.
If I had one common focus it would be hand path and the words forearm swivel, THT and uptick were never used and they got it!
Even Slaught made the point that up to toe touch there is more style and at toe touch it basically is the same. However I say it is hand path to contact and the blue print stops there in my opinion and then we build a swing prior to and after for each kid!
Wellphyt said, "On the issue of balance, I think Howard makes some good points and I would agree that in this area there can be differences between males and females. On the issue of how MLB players hold their hands while in their stance, position their feet in the batters box, or grip the bat; those are all style items that will vary from player to player."
You would think that 40 plus coaches, just one would be able to show us how to get balanced and could not! Possibly out of 160 kids one could understand how to get balanced and they could not!
You are correct there are differences and it is enough to step back and try to understand why?
Why do they throw like girls and do not shift their weight when throwing?
Many of the girls did not even start playing ball until 10 to 12 years old and their neuro muscular skills are not as honed as the boys and still need to be refined especially for balance, throwing and what momentum feels like and grip!
They give up when making contact with the ball and I could care less what was done or not done up stream as they do not understand what to do after they feel contact. A couple of the kids dads that attended are professional loggers and they understood what I was saying about extension. Then we did the nail simulator and some of the parents looked in disbelief as their daughter tried to use a $7 dollar hammer and looked like she had no clue what to do with it.
The wrist releases the centripetal forces, however if you do not understand how the wrist work as hinges you are swinging around the ball as they do not know what releasing the force even feels like until they try and use the hammer!
I am being facetious however where is that on the blue print and under what specific note?
Also where is the blue print note on how to throw when they can not even understand how to hit can be explained well enough for a parent or coach to explain it?
As to grip we challenged some big dudes at the coaches clinic that look like they could bench press a car, to grip the bat and we forced the bat rearward with our little finger and that is no exaggeration either. Then Crystl ask them to force her rearward and her feet moved however the bat stayed in placed and I can not put in print what he said!
The same grip or you can term it cookie cutter grip was taught to all the girls verses holding the bat in the back of the hand like 90% of the dads show and coaches used at the clinic!
Without all the fancy words SOME use on here that parents have no clue to what it means or how to even get a handle on what they are explaining, lets make more of an effort to understand the MLB hand path, a good grip to start with and how to get balanced and stay balanced during our athletic movements.
Another point of interest that we pointed out when working with girls....with a group of about 10 parents at the clinic....I asked a girl to get ready to hit and then ask her to raise her hands?
I had informed the parents in a group what I thought she would do when ask this question and that she would raise her hands and elbows as a unit! She did!
I went over and found a young man and did the same thing and he raised just his hands!
I did a similar thing when we started hitting off the tee harder and told the parents she would give up at contact and you would see the lead arm fold up and she would finish low over the shoulder between the neck and shoulder as girls have tendency to give up once contact is made. She did!
After about 5 hand over drills she started pounding the ball and you could hear it in the bat and ball collision!
Pick your hitting faith and pray to your God as to who you think, as to hitting philosophy, works well for your daughter and in my opinion understand what is different when teaching the girls and you will have more success with your team and daughters in my opinion.
Thanks Howard
We have no issues and it is all good as to discussion with me also.
In my opinion the MLB Elite Swing is still being discussed and the blue print has not yet been written by anyone yet! But there sure are a lot of opinions on which way is best isn't there?
Especially by the male coaches and baseball people and sites....just maybe Coach Enquist will take a shot at it again on how to further break it down here in the near future!
It is like attending church...go to a church and pick a faith of your choice and if you feel spiritually connected and feel like you got your internal battery recharged on Friday, Saturday or Sunday based on your faith, then go with your God! At least you chose to get involved and follow something you believe in! Amen! and Hallelujah!
Wellphyt said. "IMO it’s unimportant if you agree with Mankin’s explanation of how MLB players hit in a long zone. The important point for me is that the best players in MLB do something different with their hands and forearms which allow them to hit in a long zone. I see fastpitch players like Bustos using their hands and forearms in a similar fashion."
I like to describe it as the big zone and explain it that way. In a clinic we put a lot of focus on getting into the big zone as quickly as possible so the kids can see it and what they do with their hands and elbows to get there.
Crystl did not play softball until she was 14 I think and up to that point played baseball and was also a pitcher for baseball and still does well as to pitching. She threw out a pitch at a Reds home game hard enough that it caught the catcher off guard and he stumbled backwards and the crowd laughed! He was not expecting a girl to have the velocity or control off the mound at 60 feet!
We string a piece of caution tape from the net about ten feet long to the tee at an angle and call the caution tape the path of the ball or plane of the incoming pitch and put a home plate in the area of five feet and directly under the caution tape. We use the spring loaded clothes pins and measure where the bat enters over the caution tape and where it leaves the caution tape and measure the difference.
Usually the first attempt is 35 to 40 inches and we use the hand path device to focus more on the lead elbow touching the end and directing the knob forward which means they had to turn and tilt or the knob will not get there and the check point is where is the elbow and hand at connection? We can put them into the position to feel it as they do it!
We have taught them to measure off from the plate, how to balance, and what a ready and set position is and why we use it.
We separate to toe touch, elbows.... back elbow lowers as lead elbow is moving forward and up like it is going up a ramp and the elbow and hand are at a check point to see if they are stacked over each other (lined up) just a little forward of the back hip area. ( Important point is there must be sufficient area for the elbow to clear the hip and breast and another point is their shoulders are narrower and rounded unlike the male which has wide shoulders ) The knob is leading and the bat is not parallel yet and then we say parallel to contact and it is in our lane, the area between our toes to home plate with the knob leading the barrel (bat lag) and we release the barrel to contact and through and finish.
As the improvements are made they quickly get to 45 to 55 inches and are amazed at how simple it is when allowed to see visually where the bat is going verses trying to power the ball at 100 % off the tee.
It is done slow and deliberately even off the tee and we try to get them to just flip the ball into the tee while building a base to work from and then introduce them to the hand over drill so they start to finish properly right away!
AP's big zone is 60 inches and Bustos was measured this past weekend at 72 inches and AP's bat speed is 86.99 MPH and Bustos was 79 MPH. Hand path looked pretty close however!
This is so over looked as everyone thinks the girls function the same as the boys and 160 hitters plus parents and coaches got an opportunity to see it is not the same and the blue print for teaching it is not the same either as to how to teach it.
If I had one common focus it would be hand path and the words forearm swivel, THT and uptick were never used and they got it!
Even Slaught made the point that up to toe touch there is more style and at toe touch it basically is the same. However I say it is hand path to contact and the blue print stops there in my opinion and then we build a swing prior to and after for each kid!
Wellphyt said, "On the issue of balance, I think Howard makes some good points and I would agree that in this area there can be differences between males and females. On the issue of how MLB players hold their hands while in their stance, position their feet in the batters box, or grip the bat; those are all style items that will vary from player to player."
You would think that 40 plus coaches, just one would be able to show us how to get balanced and could not! Possibly out of 160 kids one could understand how to get balanced and they could not!
You are correct there are differences and it is enough to step back and try to understand why?
Why do they throw like girls and do not shift their weight when throwing?
Many of the girls did not even start playing ball until 10 to 12 years old and their neuro muscular skills are not as honed as the boys and still need to be refined especially for balance, throwing and what momentum feels like and grip!
They give up when making contact with the ball and I could care less what was done or not done up stream as they do not understand what to do after they feel contact. A couple of the kids dads that attended are professional loggers and they understood what I was saying about extension. Then we did the nail simulator and some of the parents looked in disbelief as their daughter tried to use a $7 dollar hammer and looked like she had no clue what to do with it.
The wrist releases the centripetal forces, however if you do not understand how the wrist work as hinges you are swinging around the ball as they do not know what releasing the force even feels like until they try and use the hammer!
I am being facetious however where is that on the blue print and under what specific note?
Also where is the blue print note on how to throw when they can not even understand how to hit can be explained well enough for a parent or coach to explain it?
As to grip we challenged some big dudes at the coaches clinic that look like they could bench press a car, to grip the bat and we forced the bat rearward with our little finger and that is no exaggeration either. Then Crystl ask them to force her rearward and her feet moved however the bat stayed in placed and I can not put in print what he said!
The same grip or you can term it cookie cutter grip was taught to all the girls verses holding the bat in the back of the hand like 90% of the dads show and coaches used at the clinic!
Without all the fancy words SOME use on here that parents have no clue to what it means or how to even get a handle on what they are explaining, lets make more of an effort to understand the MLB hand path, a good grip to start with and how to get balanced and stay balanced during our athletic movements.
Another point of interest that we pointed out when working with girls....with a group of about 10 parents at the clinic....I asked a girl to get ready to hit and then ask her to raise her hands?
I had informed the parents in a group what I thought she would do when ask this question and that she would raise her hands and elbows as a unit! She did!
I went over and found a young man and did the same thing and he raised just his hands!
I did a similar thing when we started hitting off the tee harder and told the parents she would give up at contact and you would see the lead arm fold up and she would finish low over the shoulder between the neck and shoulder as girls have tendency to give up once contact is made. She did!
After about 5 hand over drills she started pounding the ball and you could hear it in the bat and ball collision!
Pick your hitting faith and pray to your God as to who you think, as to hitting philosophy, works well for your daughter and in my opinion understand what is different when teaching the girls and you will have more success with your team and daughters in my opinion.
Thanks Howard
wellphyt -
Excellent post.
I would say you not only need to hit through a long zone, but the zone is lengthened by getting up to speed quickly/spatially early in the plane and the plane needs to be matched to ball trajectory.
This has also been described as "early batspeed" enabling "late adjustability".
In other words, you can wait longer on the ball as the generic swing motion is under way with hands staying back as you read the pitch, then accelerate the bathead quickly to max velocity in a long zone.
This long zone that starts spatially early is produced by "barrel to ball", not knob to ball mechanics.
The hands load back and up by inward turn and hand loading and stay back by the resistance that is created by getting palms flat.
The bathead accelerates efficiently by kinetic link/summation by torquing handle and thrusting back hip, not by using arms to take knob to ball and not by turning/rotating hips in a way that gets weight forward early.
As to the "adjustment" of plane, that has to do primarily with "rearward tilt" of axis (NOT "anterior" tilt over plate OR rearward tilt by reverse pivot, BUT rearward tilt of the spine with weight going forward to center and not lunging further forward as Epstein descreibes).
So you match the plane of the swing to the pitch for a long zone with early batspeed and late adjustability. when you are early, you get the overspin liner. late and a fly ball that carries.
Excellent post.
I would say you not only need to hit through a long zone, but the zone is lengthened by getting up to speed quickly/spatially early in the plane and the plane needs to be matched to ball trajectory.
This has also been described as "early batspeed" enabling "late adjustability".
In other words, you can wait longer on the ball as the generic swing motion is under way with hands staying back as you read the pitch, then accelerate the bathead quickly to max velocity in a long zone.
This long zone that starts spatially early is produced by "barrel to ball", not knob to ball mechanics.
The hands load back and up by inward turn and hand loading and stay back by the resistance that is created by getting palms flat.
The bathead accelerates efficiently by kinetic link/summation by torquing handle and thrusting back hip, not by using arms to take knob to ball and not by turning/rotating hips in a way that gets weight forward early.
As to the "adjustment" of plane, that has to do primarily with "rearward tilt" of axis (NOT "anterior" tilt over plate OR rearward tilt by reverse pivot, BUT rearward tilt of the spine with weight going forward to center and not lunging further forward as Epstein descreibes).
So you match the plane of the swing to the pitch for a long zone with early batspeed and late adjustability. when you are early, you get the overspin liner. late and a fly ball that carries.
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Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Big Zone Video?
Howard,
Theoretically, I think I understand the "Big Zone" concept - trying to have the swing plane intersect the ball path for as long as possible in order to allow at least partial contact when timing is off (early or late), but I can't envision the demo from this or prior descriptions. Video would be a great help here. Any footage of this out there or can anyone help out w/ this one? I think it will help bring the big picture into much better focus for me - SEE it has to come before feel it and fix it!
Thanks in advance - GM
Howard,
Theoretically, I think I understand the "Big Zone" concept - trying to have the swing plane intersect the ball path for as long as possible in order to allow at least partial contact when timing is off (early or late), but I can't envision the demo from this or prior descriptions. Video would be a great help here. Any footage of this out there or can anyone help out w/ this one? I think it will help bring the big picture into much better focus for me - SEE it has to come before feel it and fix it!
Thanks in advance - GM
GM
If you or anyone has video of RVP with Candrea doing the demo of the Big Zone this would be pretty close to what we do.
The next time Gerry comes over we will also shoot one then plus a few other things we do.
Thanks Howard
- May 11, 2009
- 279
- 0
Howard,
If you and Gerry can find time I too would really benefit from some of your drills or techniques on video as well. I am one of the guys who really pick it up better from seeing it reather then reading it. The big words loose me.
Thanks,
Mike
If you and Gerry can find time I too would really benefit from some of your drills or techniques on video as well. I am one of the guys who really pick it up better from seeing it reather then reading it. The big words loose me.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike
What "Big Words" did I use other than big zone? Even the kids get that one....just kidding!
Could it be this one? " This long zone that starts spatially early is produced by "barrel to ball", not knob to ball mechanics."
Adv. 1. spatially - with regard to space; "spatially limited"
Mike try this until I can get with Gerry, take a string or piece of ribbon and use duct tape and tape the string or ribbon to a mirror about waist level high and attach the other end to something so it is knee level high. You have now created the big zone!
Take a piece of tape and place it on the knob of the bat where the length and weight sticker/ label is on the knob to make it more visual.
Do you know how to find the sweet part of the bat?
Put a string around the knob of the bat and hold the string and let the bat hang down. Take a hammer and starting towards the end of the bat, gently tap or hit it and usually about 4 to 6 inches from the end of the bat you will hear a ping and the bat vibrates very little and that is the sweet spot of the bat. Mark it with some tape.
Now put a home plate exactly under the string or ribbon and measure off from home plate off the back corner of home plate by putting the end of the bat on the outside corner and placing your lead foot at the knob of the bat.
Prepare to swing and make sure you are looking into the mirror....slowly start your swing and try to get the sweet spot of the bat on the path of the ribbon or string as long as you can.
Ask yourself a few questions as you attempt this.
Did my hands go over the string or ribbon at any time?
Did my bat head go over the ribbon or string quickly or slowly?
If you think the elbows are working together and the knob is leading the elbows you should see the tape on the knob of the bat and this should look like bat lag and the bat will be parallel to the string or ribbon.
Then as you release the barrel of the bat towards the ball, think as soon as the barrel goes over the top of the string or ribbon, as an opportunity for the bat to hit the ball and this starts your entry into the big zone. Mark it with a clothes pin!
Now how long can you make the tape on the sweet part of the bat stay on the same path as the ribbon or string?
Notice you are turning your shoulders and have tilted to some degree and your hands are inside the path of the ball (string and ribbon are the path of the ball) ?
Keep moving the bat through the POC or point of contact and to extension and when the bat moves away and is no longer on the path of the ribbon or string, mark it with a clothes pin and you have reached the forward limit of the bats travel and are now officially out of the big zone!
The thinking of this demonstration is that as the bat enters over the string or ribbon you have the potential to hit the ball or at least foul the ball and then continue over the ribbon or string and finally exit from the big zone!
The concept for the kids is too visually show them what it means by keeping the hands inside the ball (string or ribbon) verses casting out or allowing the bat head to be released early as they are in the zone momentarily and then back out and in again and back out again not giving them much of a chance to hit the ball with the sweet part of the bat.
I have one team that has cut off old bats and cut them about 18 inches up from the handle and placed smiley face stickers on the knob of the bat. They ask their players to take 50 slow motion swings before they go to bed each night while standing in front of a mirror and they know if they can see the smiley face sticker, they are doing it correctly as the longer they see it they are at bat lag.
Hope this helps and the words were not too big! Smile Mike it is 8 AM here!
Thanks Howard
- Oct 12, 2009
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- 0
In my opinion, the idea of hitting in a long zone is a myth.
The only way to accomplish this is the push the hands forward through the strike zone, and no good hitter does this.
I also have tons of video of Pujols and have never seen any evidence that his zone is longer than average. The only significant difference is that his bat speed is only 87 MPH, which causes the head of his bat to stay in the strike zone a bit longer.
- Oct 12, 2009
- 1,460
- 0
This is a simply ridiculous idea.
The bat is rotating around the spine. Therefore, the sooner you get up to speed, the sooner the swing is finished.
Starting early would only work if you revolved around the spinal axis multiple times like a hammer thrower.
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