Two Seamers

[JJsqueeze]

sigh....you can take the attorney out of the courtroom but you can't take the courtroom out of the attorney....
I have not flip flopped at all, haven't backtracked at all, haven't adjusted my thinking at all. I have tried to clarify, tried to explain in different terms etc. Re-read and assume for a second that I am not trying to win an argument but explain something and instead of trying to find nitpicky straw men, just try to understand the concept then maybe you will see it differently. Everything I have said from post one was all based on one simple concept that I have tried repeatedly to get across to you but you remain hung up on a straw man about the grip, or the name of the pitch. If you are misinterpreting something that is on you.

If you want to believe that this simple concept of smooth vs rough does not lead to side forces then be my guest, if you want to believe in Bigfoot and a flat Earth that is also your choice. But Cricket bowlers, physicists, MLB pitchers, bucket dads and all 5 of my dogs think you are just being obstinate. If you choose to accept this concept but then want to say that you can achieve it with 4 seams spinning to the wind instead of 2 then that is also your choice, but I think I have put up enough information that if you want to start opening your mind a little you might see that maybe there is something to this.

 

[JJsqueeze]

For those of you that have DDs that can throw a 4 seamer with the slightly off axis 12-6 rotation, have her throw the same pitch as a two seamer and see if it cuts in

Here is the first post Sluggers where I specifically stated off axis 12-6 rotation. So where did you even get that I thought we were ever talking about a straight 12-6 rotation?

 

[JJsqueeze]

now repeat after me....

"my bad for not actually reading the first post, maybe if I had I would have actually understood what was being talked about.....I take back everything I said...you are right JJ"....see that wasn't so hard now was it?

 

[Perfect Circle]

That's a lot of typing ^

 

[riseball]

DD uses two fingers just above the narrows for the same effect.

 

[Perfect Circle]

DD started w/ the hockey puck.... then to the taped ball. With the grip above, it was for her first pitch... drop. I always seemed to have more drop with 2~Seams. Pads of fingers over the seam gives you something to peel. You dig the thumb & pinky in hard, as you peel, and you got an "Off the Table Drop"...Keep the pads behind the seams, and thumb & pinky off any seams.... you got the "Flat Finger Knuckle Ball"... All 2~Seamed.

Why I'm interested is I know you get more location/rotation w/ 2~Seamed. I don't understand how she gets the ball moving North,South,East & West all 1/7... 2~SEAMED ?????

 

[knightsb]

This may be a stupid question, is there a difference in speed between a twelve-six spin 2-seam vs a 4-seam fastball?

I've read that a 4-seam baseball thrown with six-twelve (backspin) is more aerodynamic and thus a faster pitch.

 

[goosesdad1]

JJ,

Thank you for all the evidence you have presented. I understand it the same way you do, so I would have to say you are absolutely correct in your presentation and interpretation of the information provided on the movement caused by smooth surface vs. rough surface - like the movement on a two-seam pitch. I sure would like to see the presentation of contrary evidence, so that I might better understand what others appear to be "debating" or "arguing," but certainly not discussing. I see a lot of words contradicting you, but I missed any evidence. Am I missing something?

 

[JJsqueeze]

JJ,

Thank you for all the evidence you have presented. I understand it the same way you do, so I would have to say you are absolutely correct in your presentation and interpretation of the information provided on the movement caused by smooth surface vs. rough surface - like the movement on a two-seam pitch. I sure would like to see the presentation of contrary evidence, so that I might better understand what others appear to be "debating" or "arguing," but certainly not discussing. I see a lot of words contradicting you, but I missed any evidence. Am I missing something?

Thanks-I don't think you are missing anything. There is not much research on this specific topic that I can find. The articles referenced from both Dr. Nathan and Dr. Cross are all I could find on the topic. I am sure there are others, but they just might be a little more difficult to find. When you dig a little deeper in the articles and start looking into the research they referenced you get quickly go from information aimed at the layman and into papers that are created by physicists for physicists. I don't know of any contrary studies or papers saying in effect smooth vs rough surface variation does not have an effect on flight path.

That said, Sluggers is a really intelligent guy and his DD pitched at a pretty high level in D1. So he knows a thing or two about pitching. I just think that in this case he has a pre-formulated opinion and is more in the mode of trying to win an argument by any means necessary than in the mode of trying to be open minded to new information.

When I look at everything I have read\watched all of the feedback from people like Riseball who also have DDs pitching at high level and saying that a 2 seamer as described can move well, I am pretty confident that there is "gold in them thar hills" and that it is worth spending time exploring during my practice with my daughter. Maybe it pans out and she gets command of a decent pitch, maybe it doesn't, but from what I have seen on the bucket so far, it really looks promising.

 

[pobguy]

JJ:


I referenced a couple of studies showing that movement of the 2S fastball and 4S fastball were the same.

There is a *huge* body of pitch-tracking data from MLB (using the PITCHf/x system) showing that a 2S and 4S fastball move differently. The primary difference is that the 4S is throw with the spin axis very close to 6-12 (i.e., nearly pure backspin, with a little sidespin due to arm slot), whereas the 2S has the axis tilted so that there is less backspin (therefore, more drop) and more sidespin (more armside tailing). When PITCHf/x analyzers attach labels to pitches (i.e., 2S, 4S, cutter, slider, etc.), they primarily are using a combination of release speed and direction of movement to make those identifications. And the difference in movement is the primary way they distinguish 2S from 4S (w/o having to look at high-speed video). As I have said at various times on this thread, I prefer to rely on data rather than either perceptions or anecdotal accounts.