Turning the Barrel

[RayR]

Are you so crazy to say that the hands and wrists should be moving faster than the hips and shoulders??? Blasphemy....

Did this guy Ted know what he was talking about?

What's next? The earth is round and not flat??

Are you sure your elbow gets out in front of your hand when you throw sidearm? Are you sure it's not just your elbow working underneath your hand; which kind of feels like the elbow leading back? The throwing motion is an easy way to teach the girls how to work the elbow underneath. Once they get the basic motion down, I then emphasize going all out with the hands as described by Williams. Going all out with the hands should help eliminate bat drag issues. I have found that most bat drag issues can be traced back to dead hands/wrist. I bought my daughter a wrist/forearm developer to strengthen her wrist and forearms.

Williams wanted the shoulders and hips going at about 85%. He wanted the hands and wrist at 100%. As he says, you don't want to hold anything back with the hands and wrist. The hips and shoulders are on a tighter axis than the hands, which are a few inches away from the body holding onto the bat. If the hips, shoulders and wrist are all working at 85%, then the hands won't be able to keep up with the shoulders because they are further away from center of axis. Simple physics.

How does a hitter know if he's working his hips at 85%? Williams says if you go much more than that you can upset balance. Which gets back to the idea of being in control and balanced throughout the entire swing. The kids don't know what 85% is, but they can feel when they are in balance. IMO giving the kids the idea of going all out with the hands from a balanced position, establishes a good framework.

 

[wannahit]

mts, is it fair to say you dont agree with williams' theories on hitting?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Are you sure your elbow gets out in front of your hand when you throw sidearm? Are you sure it's not just your elbow working underneath your hand; which kind of feels like the elbow leading back? The throwing motion is an easy way to teach the girls how to work the elbow underneath. Once they get the basic motion down, I then emphasize going all out with the hands as described by Williams. Going all out with the hands should help eliminate bat drag issues. I have found that most bat drag issues can be traced back to dead hands/wrist. I bought my daughter a wrist/forearm developer to strengthen her wrist and forearms.

Williams wanted the shoulders and hips going at about 85%. He wanted the hands and wrist at 100%. As he says, you don't want to hold anything back with the hands and wrist. The hips and shoulders are on a tighter axis than the hands, which are a few inches away from the body holding onto the bat. If the hips, shoulders and wrist are all working at 85%, then the hands won't be able to keep up with the shoulders because they are further away from center of axis. Simple physics.

How does a hitter know if he's working his hips at 85%? Williams says if you go much more than that you can upset balance. Which gets back to the idea of being in control and balanced throughout the entire swing. The kids don't know what 85% is, but they can feel when they are in balance. IMO giving the kids the idea of going all out with the hands from a balanced position, establishes a good framework.

Wellphyt, IMO the 80-85% target that Williams spoke of is about right ... and IMO, beyond 85%, it becomes difficult to consistently synchronize the hands with the SnF mechanics.

 

[RayR]

Ha, I guess facetious doesn't translate well with the written word....

No, I think Ted hit the mark on his observations.

mts, is it fair to say you dont agree with williams' theories on hitting?

 

[Wellphyt]

Ha, I guess facetious doesn't translate well with the written word....

No, I think Ted hit the mark on his observations.

It translated fine to me...

 

[ArmWhip]

The sidearm-stonethrowing motion is substantially different from the hand-wrist-arm action used in hitting. In the Slaught video he uses the sidearm throwing motion to setup a proper launch position. I don't know what's next in his video sequence but in this one he doesn't actually throw sidearm, with good reason. From launch to contact the hitting motion differs substantially from the sidearm throwing motion. When you throw sidearm the elbow leads, in hitting the elbow stays more or less under the hand in a 'stacked' position (it actually leads a little). When you throw sidearm the arm rotates so that the palm is facing down the target line, in hitting the palm faces 'up' until after contact.

When I give pitching lessons I often recommend that girls try skipping stones or learn to throw sidearm. If they can do this then they are on their way to developing a sound pitching motion, all they have to do is work the release point lower and lower. In the pitching section on this site we have developed our own acronym for describing a key arm action in the fastpitch motion, IR, short for internal rotation. What we are describing is this; the elbow leads on the downswing with the palm facing 'out' (3rd base), the arm internally rotates (IR) into release (palm facing home plate), then on the follow through the palm rotates to face 1st base. This same basic action takes places when you throw sidearm, the elbow leads and the arm/hand internally rotates from 'open to square to closed'. In hitting the IR part of the swing does not take place until after contact when you roll your wrists.

To say that you are using a true sidearm throwing action when you hit, that you are throwing the bat into contact is not accurate. There are some pictures of Bonds earlier in this topic, he is certainly not in a throwing position.


Here is a good look at the arm/elbow position in a sidearm throw, not what you see in hitting.

 

[wannahit]

i was glad to see your post armwhip, i was biginning to think their was something wrong with me since i lead with my elbow throwing sidearm

 

[redhotcoach]

i was glad to see your post armwhip, i was biginning to think their was something wrong with me since i lead with my elbow throwing sidearm

DW yesterday "what the hel are you doing?". Me: "trying to throw sidearm with my elbow under my hand". Her, "you're an idiot"

 

[Wellphyt]

These two instructors have no problem working the elbow underneath. When I say underneath, I don't mean "stacked". I mean that the hand stays relatively in place while the elbow works down. If you're concerned about the elbow getting ahead of the hand, use a wiffle ball to reduce weight/resistance in the hand so the forearm doesn't lay over.



Of course when we hit we have two hands acting on the bat. As I've stated many, many times, the bottom hand alters the throwing motion to the point where you get the "hard push swing" that Williams described. It's amazing to me that some can't see the similarity between throwing sidearm and hitting.

[video]http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j399/baseballgifs/BabeRuth_smaller.gif[/video]

[video]http://i26.tinypic.com/2449k0i.gif[/video]

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Wellphyt ... IMO the throwing analogy is best used to focus on actions upstream from where your photos are shown. Not uncommon at all for the forearm to lag in a sidearm throw, much like a barrel will lag in a swing.