The State of Softball with Sue Enquist (Jan. 15, 2015)

[SoCal_Dad]

I would be interested to hear how the data was collected that supports the conclusion that not only was there a decline but within a specific age group. Not sure how you would even go about such a task without relying on some very convoluted data. Until then I would view any of this with a high degree of skepticism.

The sample baseball report describes their methodology and shows the type of data they gather.

The first paragraph in the article indicates the participation rates came from a survey by the Sports & Fitness Industry Association (SFIA). Their reports are not hard to find, but most will cost you if you're not a member - https://www.sfia.org/reports/all. These reports are done by a professional research group and are higher quality than most done for a publication. Here are links to a couple of free ones:
- SAMPLE_SFIA_2012_Single Sport.pdf (Baseball)
- The Journey of Sports Participation in America

 

[Jojo]

Maybe needs a new thread. I wonder what Sue Enquist thinks about the 13 yr old pitcher who just verballed to UCLA.

I would love a discussion on this as well.

 

[SoAZDad]

I know that one of the best D1 coaches in the country hates it, but must look at the very young girls to keep recruiting up against the other top programs.

New thread?

 

[BT3100]

I think you are onto something with the younger pitchers skill set. In our Rec league it's coach pitch for 6-8. By 8 years old some of these girls are developing into decent hitters. Then comes the kid pitch and at 9 years old it's a walk fest. Walk after walk.. and these girls who were learning to hit now would be lucky to see even one good pitch. Many times they are standing with the bat on their shoulders waiting for the walk. This past year while watching a game of 9 year old's I asked the coach "Why don't you coach pitch after 4 balls?".
He said "The pitchers need to learn to pitch". That's true but games aren't when they need to learn to pitch.

The other piece with pitching is that most girls give it up at 10 if they are just good, not great. We have a good set of travel teams in our area and most girls try out. I was talking to a kids father a few years ago. Our kids played together 10U rec ball. She was a year older than my kid. She was a good pitcher but the father told me that she was giving it up as she would "never" make a travel team as a pitcher and he wanted her to get better at OF. At that time she was better than my kid by a lot...
I saw him and his kid at our pitching practice facility last week. We said "wow your kid looks great". I was thinking to myself; imagine if you didn't give up on your kid, she would be a great pitcher. Sorry for the rant.

 

[dbronstein]

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned. The "Good Ole Boys Club" mentality within rec leagues. For the most part the leagues have many, many more boys than girls playing ball. It's not unusual for there to be a boys first mentality when it comes to the running of the organization. The girls will often get the poorer fields to play on and are often well down on the priority list of the organization. That can be disheartening for both the players and the parents.

This was a major issue in the rec league we played in last spring. Their focus was baseball and softball got the leftovers - crappy practice times on the worst fields, etc. We had a game rescheduled at the last minute because they wanted to use the field for a baseball game. The whole thing was a total joke.

 

[dbronstein]

I think you are onto something with the younger pitchers skill set. In our Rec league it's coach pitch for 6-8. By 8 years old some of these girls are developing into decent hitters. Then comes the kid pitch and at 9 years old it's a walk fest. Walk after walk.. and these girls who were learning to hit now would be lucky to see even one good pitch. Many times they are standing with the bat on their shoulders waiting for the walk. This past year while watching a game of 9 year old's I asked the coach "Why don't you coach pitch after 4 balls?".
He said "The pitchers need to learn to pitch". That's true but games aren't when they need to learn to pitch.

I don't understand that mentality either, especially since they are learning to pitch if you do the coach pitch. Both our 10U rec leagues do it and it works great. The pitchers get a chance to pitch, and if they are struggling to throw strikes, the coaches come in and the hitters get to hit and the fielders get to field.

Our spring league (the same one in the previous post) did this wacky thing where you could play with the Xtreme rules if both teams agreed. Our coaches preferred that because we had a stud pitcher, so we played a bunch of games with no coach pitch and most of them were ridiculous. We had one game that we won 9-7 without hitting a fair ball. I'm serious - we scored 9 runs on walks and steals and never put a ball in play. It was a total joke. Our coach referred to the coach pitch as "baby ball", which totally missed the point. If you have pitchers who can throw strikes, it doesn't matter because the coaches don't come in to pitch. And if the pitchers aren't throwing strikes, would you rather have a walkathon or have the players get to hit and field?

And then there was the game where the ump said "we're not going to have a walkathon" in the pregame meeting and then proceded to call a strikezone from the feet to the top of the head. I think he even called strikes on some balls that bounced on the plate.

 

[dbronstein]

I think what we are going to see is a gradual reduction in sports participation across the board. The reason is the successive generations seem to be less interested in getting their kids to participate in sports. They are more tech oriented. There seems to be a glut of unknowing parents who don't want to let their children compete so they avoid sports. Or they start their own team so their children do not have to compete.

I have seen the exact opposite here (Denver). Youth sports are booming. We have a lot of problems finding practice fields for baseball and softball because there is such a high demand. Other sports seem to be thriving as well. Lacrosse is all over the place. Soccer is still huge. Etc.

 

[vikingcoach]

What is the issue with kid pitch? The BB's? Watch some 14U "C" ball, it's a walk fest. Yes I know "C" ball is a baby step above REC at times but in order for pitchers to get better they need to work at it. The better pitchers in my area have been pitching since they were 6-8. Most pitchers and catchers play rec for the extra work, not a better place for a catcher to block at than a rec ball game IMO.

That's fine for pitchers and catchers, but what about the other 7 girls on the field that hate the game because they just stand and watch the whole game? The reason REC and travel are different is because REC is to focus on giving all the opportunity to learn the game in a positive environment that fosters a love of the game. With only BBs and SOs there is not much learning or enjoyment taking place.

I do agree with the money issue. That's the number one reason parents in my area give about not playing on a travel team. It is a contradiction by some who allow their daughter to play JO volleyball. I think they see more value out of volleyball where there is more action during the game for their daughter then what they have experienced through REC softball.

 

[vikingcoach]

We can hang wring all we want as softball people but I think the simple fact is that the pace of the diamond sports is not meshing well with the frenetic pace of ADD America. This is not a bad thing IMO, just because sheer numbers are going down does not mean that overall quality has to. Coaching quality is better, the college game is better. Fewer players staying with it, but better players IMO and better coaching with the advent of new technology, better use of video etc.

So just because the popularity is decreasing does not mean the game is getting worse.

MLB world series viewership numbers are a telltale sign IMO....

World Series television ratings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I understand the point you are trying to make with better quality at the higher end. The issue is that at 9, 10, 11 and perhaps even 12 years old it is a little early in a child's development to be writing them off as a softball player. I have seen many girls who were considered not very good in their youth blossom into great players in high school. Have seen it the other way as well. Girls expected to dominate as little girls fizzle out. The more girls you keep active at a younger age the better for the sport IMHO.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

The more girls you keep active at a younger age the better for the sport IMHO.

Maybe "actively engaged" is a better term to use there? And that is the issue in a nutshell.

When I was a kid, all the boys in the neighborhood would get together just about every summer day and pop across the street to play baseball on the grass in front of the middle school. We played with a tennis ball, used trees and bushes for bases (and our gloves for 3B), the street was our outfield, and the house across the street was a homerun. When we didn't have enough for a game (and we'd play down to 3v3), we'd play pickle until we couldn't move. If there were only 2 of us, we'd just go play catch and talk about our favorite players/teams. The younger boys picked up the game from the older boys. This was in the 70's, so not exactly ancient history.

That kind of thing doesn't happen now, at least not where I live. Now we have to schedule "play dates" and try to fit it in between too many different sport schedules, music lessons, extracurriculars, and electronic devices. The only way for them to get the exposure they need to be better players is specialization, private instruction, and a little bit (or a lot) of tiger parenting. Someone else said kids don't have time to just play. I would say that they are not given that time by us parents.

So how do I get my rec girls actively engaged in a sport that they only play during that sport's season, where the majority of the play time is spent standing around waiting for something to happen, where they are coached by a parent who had to be coerced into the job because no one wanted to do it (and if they did want to, didn't take the time to learn how to do it adequately), and then come to me at 12U not knowing how to slide or when to tag up (or even what "tagging up" means)? And then I'm supposed to take 8practices and 12 games and get my girls to love the sport?

I get the ideas of challenging them, making them think, and rewarding them for effort and accomplishment. Been doing that for years. 2 of my best players whom I've coached for 5 years now, and who love to play, couldn't come play fall ball for me because their folks made them play soccer. It felt very much like the parents viewed softball as a "filler" season and not as a future athletic path for their girls.

Someone else talked about the 3 sport athletes as a good thing. I guess I agree, as I played baseball, football, and ran track. But I didn't start playing football until I was already an athlete, where baseball was my passion from the time I was a kid. I think that it is hard to develop a passion for a sport if you're only playing it for a few months at a time and then moving to the next thing. Heck, my DD is more actively engaged with the stupid iPad I let her buy than with anything else, and she's a stellar, gifted musician.

Apologies for rambling - the above was very stream-of-consciousness. Feel free to ignore and move on.