The Kelly Barnhill Thread

[STRIKE3]

Ok.....I am an purest relative to the game of softball.......the leaping-replant (see crowhop) becoming more prevalent in the woman's game is very similar to what has totally happened to the men's game.......I think it is making a mockery of the game. I am kinda like Trump in that we are a nation of laws and we need to follow those laws......well, we have a rule book in softball and it needs to be followed. For the life of me I cannot understand how any umpire working above rec league cannot identify a crowhop.
I wonder what an umpire in baseball would do if a pitcher jumped off the rubber, landed and then initiated his pitch.

I just have to say a couple of things. 1. Pauly is the best! 2. He quoted the next President way before anyone knew or thought he had a chance in hell. 3. Pauly for President!!

Good call Rick! lol

 

[STRIKE3]

Barnhill is repushing. Look at her back (drive) knee:

View attachment 10383

In the 4th frame, you can see Barnhill's back knee reload for a second push. Ocasio's does not.

This is easy to see, even in real time. IMO, no excuse for not calling it or legalizing it.

Pumpkin, you made a good point on the above. However, I learned something new regarding ASA rules. After further investigation and to be completely honest, learning more about what is legal and illegal, I did not realize the following until recently. Again, this is just ASA and not NCAA which I believe has a statement that the push leg cannot bear weight a second time or something like that. Please see below:

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.
Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent.As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

 

[riseball]

The farce that is NCAA softball umpiring continues. They have turned the game into a complete joke by letting her get away with this.

 

[Rocketech1]

The farce that is NCAA softball umpiring continues. They have turned the game into a complete joke by letting her get away with this.

You dug up a thread from a year ago to bash Barnhill? Must have a DD that pitches in the SEC : )

Can't wait for the time when they change the pitching rules. Leap and drag is so unnatural. Let them pitch like the big boys.

 

[riseball]

You dug up a thread from a year ago to bash Barnhill? Must have a DD that pitches in the SEC : )

Can't wait for the time when they change the pitching rules. Leap and drag is so unnatural. Let them pitch like the big boys.

Not bashing Barnhill, NCAA umpires. Unfortunately, like others before her, Barnhills legitimacy and accomplishments as a college pitcher will always be in question. Have to wonder if the NCAA will continue to look the other way should the Gators make it our of regionals this year?

I know for a fact that my DD and other pitchers could be much more effective if umpires would look the other way and give them similar latitude on a few rules.

 

[pumpkinbear]

Pumpkin, you made a good point on the above. However, I learned something new regarding ASA rules. After further investigation and to be completely honest, learning more about what is legal and illegal, I did not realize the following until recently. Again, this is just ASA and not NCAA which I believe has a statement that the push leg cannot bear weight a second time or something like that. Please see below:

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.
Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent.As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

TL/DR summary: If Barnhill is legal, why wouldn't you teach a technique that allows you to push 3-4 feet in front of the pitching plate?

STRIKE3 - I found a 2012 teamusa.org/USA-Softball article where it looks like you took this--thanks for digging it up and posting it!

The article gives an opinion on "several videos and several pitchers" without showing the video/pitchers. Or even pictures. I agree it's possible to pitch with a bent leg/pivot foot bearing weight without replanting/repushing. I argued (while acknowledging that I'm not an expert) that Osterman is doing this in the sequence posted earlier in this thread. On the other hand, it is obvious that (in both pictures and real-time) Barnhill both replants and repushes in her sequence.

If ASA has Barnhill in mind when "We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.", then why don't they just say if you don't leap, the pitch is legal?

Again, I'm not an expert and I may be missing a finer point but it's hard not to be cynical and speculate that the rule/opinion was written to accommodate specific pitchers/teams/coaches.


Rick Pauly - Does your "Thank You" to the post I'm replying to indicate gratitude to STRIKE3 for his excellent research (as does mine)?
Or does it mean that you understand and agree with the article/opinion posted by STRIKE3? If Barnhill (as shown earlier in this thread) is truly legal by the rules and I am not seeing it, could you or one of your esteemed peers set me straight?

 

[riseball]

TL/DR summary: If Barnhill is legal, why wouldn't you teach a technique that allows you to push 3-4 feet in front of the pitching plate?

STRIKE3 - I found a 2012 teamusa.org/USA-Softball article where it looks like you took this--thanks for digging it up and posting it!

The article gives an opinion on "several videos and several pitchers" without showing the video/pitchers. Or even pictures. I agree it's possible to pitch with a bent leg/pivot foot bearing weight without replanting/repushing. I argued (while acknowledging that I'm not an expert) that Osterman is doing this in the sequence posted earlier in this thread. On the other hand, it is obvious that (in both pictures and real-time) Barnhill both replants and repushes in her sequence.

If ASA has Barnhill in mind when "We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.", then why don't they just say if you don't leap, the pitch is legal?

Again, I'm not an expert and I may be missing a finer point but it's hard not to be cynical and speculate that the rule/opinion was written to accommodate specific pitchers/teams/coaches.


Rick Pauly - Does your "Thank You" to the post I'm replying to indicate gratitude to STRIKE3 for his excellent research (as does mine)?
Or does it mean that you understand and agree with the article/opinion posted by STRIKE3? If Barnhill (as shown earlier in this thread) is truly legal by the rules and I am not seeing it, could you or one of your esteemed peers set me straight?

The push and replant is moot. It is very simple, she is leaping.

 

[pumpkinbear]

The push and replant is moot. It is very simple, she is leaping.

So if Barnhill (in the video that opens this thread) had managed to drag her toe tip and still replanted and pushed a few feet in front of the pitchers plate, that would be OK?

If yes, why wouldn't you teach all pitchers to do that?

Put another way, if Jake had a little sister, would you teach her Barnhill's technique?

 

[cweb]

Were to start.. The game is going in the wrong direction. Singles and home runs is not good for the game imo. The game has evolved so much. Offense does sell tickets but come on. These pitchers should be able to hand the ball to the catcher as far as I am concerned. These bats and balls are ridiculous. Not to mention the athletes. As far as the rules go, leaping gets called and if you slide your foot and replant usually it does not. Leaping gives 0 benefit! So I am torn. My daughter a sophomore in high school can pitch both ways. Today she is more powerful with the slide re plant. She was recruited by many schools with this style. Maybe they will change that I dont know. Personally I see an evolution with illegal pitches being called. That is if it is not blatant they are not calling it. Also there is a dozen kids in the top 25 that are illegal at some capacity.

 

[Westwind]

Watched Barnhill's pre game warm up 3 weeks ago. Completely, utterly, 100% illegal the whole time. She went in game and her footwork was much different, pretty close to legal. Why warm up one way then pitch another? Then in the game the Maria Sharapova stuff started. Don't know about that.

Have seen a lot of illegal pitches called. Most because the pitcher isn't doing the present the ball baloney to the umpires liking. Seems like they call a few at the beginning of the game and forget about it. Plenty of leaping after that. But by gosh she's going to present the ball right.