halskinner
Banned
- May 7, 2008
- 2,637
- 0
Hey Ken! Cmon. We're old pitchers. We're allowed to brush somebody back once in a while! This never got anymore serious than flickin a boogar!
Hal
strikeouts or putting the ball in play--the mental appraoch
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Hey Ken! Cmon. We're old pitchers. We're allowed to brush somebody back once in a while! This never got anymore serious than flickin a boogar!
Hal
halskinner
Banned
- May 7, 2008
- 2,637
- 0
Hey Ken! Cmon. We're old pitchers. We're allowed to brush somebody back once in a while! This never got anymore serious than flickin a boogar!
Hal
Hang on. Cant use any boogars, thats a foreign substance and that's NOT allowed.
This seems like an overly simplistic argument. Why is attempting to strike every batter out and pitch sequencing for a specific outcome mutually exclusive?
How does a pitcher imagine throwing a pitch to get a weak groundout?
I want my pitchers to throw their best pitch with the intent to make the hitter miss every pitch no matter what sequence is called – a strikeout mentality. On the other hand, I will sequence pitches for a preferred outcome based on the situation.
I have no problem with Hal’s strikeout mentality although I don’t stress it to the degree Hal appears to. It does remind me of Tiger Wood’s claim that he intends to win every tourney he enters. Many in the golf community claimed that it was a ridiculous notion and unrealistic. They are correct and he keeps winning at a ridiculous ratio to tourneys entered – go figure.
Jimginas made the following comment several pages ago, “I'll draw a plan at the mound to relax the defense and give the pitcher and defense confidence how we are getting out of the situation. something like, "ok, runners at 2nd & 3rd - 1 out, batter is over agressive, and we're going to start off w/ a changeup, then drop ball in, then low-in change up, if she hits it, we hold the runner at 3B and get the out at 1, next batter is a good batter, so we are playing for a weak grounder to 2B side, 2B plays deep/SS tighter to 2B”.
Assuming the batter did not put the first pitch in play do you call the drop ball in no matter what the outcome of the changeup? What if the batter fouls it straight back for instance? Do you still keep with the plan? The count is 0-1 after the batter fouls the changeup and you call the drop ball in should the pitcher be thinking about adding or taking something off the pitch and/or hitting the black vs. coming inside off the plate? Say she comes inside with the drop and the count is now 1-1, do you still throw the low-in changeup?
I think this is where a plan for a preferred outcome becomes a problem. The pitcher may throw the next pitch exactly as called and have it run into the bat because of the previous pitches.
I have recently instituted a four pitch on or out mentality with my pitchers. In the two tourneys we have stressed this approach we have increased Ks, reduced walks, ERA, runs scored and total pitches. While anecdotal at this point it is promising. I would classify this as more of an attack mentality than purely a strikeout mentality. IOW, I want my pitchers to be fearless.
How does a pitcher imagine throwing a pitch to get a weak groundout?
I want my pitchers to throw their best pitch with the intent to make the hitter miss every pitch no matter what sequence is called – a strikeout mentality. On the other hand, I will sequence pitches for a preferred outcome based on the situation.
I have no problem with Hal’s strikeout mentality although I don’t stress it to the degree Hal appears to. It does remind me of Tiger Wood’s claim that he intends to win every tourney he enters. Many in the golf community claimed that it was a ridiculous notion and unrealistic. They are correct and he keeps winning at a ridiculous ratio to tourneys entered – go figure.
Jimginas made the following comment several pages ago, “I'll draw a plan at the mound to relax the defense and give the pitcher and defense confidence how we are getting out of the situation. something like, "ok, runners at 2nd & 3rd - 1 out, batter is over agressive, and we're going to start off w/ a changeup, then drop ball in, then low-in change up, if she hits it, we hold the runner at 3B and get the out at 1, next batter is a good batter, so we are playing for a weak grounder to 2B side, 2B plays deep/SS tighter to 2B”.
Assuming the batter did not put the first pitch in play do you call the drop ball in no matter what the outcome of the changeup? What if the batter fouls it straight back for instance? Do you still keep with the plan? The count is 0-1 after the batter fouls the changeup and you call the drop ball in should the pitcher be thinking about adding or taking something off the pitch and/or hitting the black vs. coming inside off the plate? Say she comes inside with the drop and the count is now 1-1, do you still throw the low-in changeup?
I think this is where a plan for a preferred outcome becomes a problem. The pitcher may throw the next pitch exactly as called and have it run into the bat because of the previous pitches.
I have recently instituted a four pitch on or out mentality with my pitchers. In the two tourneys we have stressed this approach we have increased Ks, reduced walks, ERA, runs scored and total pitches. While anecdotal at this point it is promising. I would classify this as more of an attack mentality than purely a strikeout mentality. IOW, I want my pitchers to be fearless.
Having a plan is just that a PLAN/STRATEGY, keep in mind - talking to the defense and pitcher has 2 purposes 1) breaks momentum of hitting team 2) the plan relaxes the girls as we understand the speed of the runners on base, the batter's capabilities, what the opposing coach is likely to do and what strategy we think will get the next 2 outs...... obviously situation dictates how we mod the plan. Same as scoring.... its all about having confidence, REALISTIC confidence and putting the team in a position to make things happen... I've come into an offensive inning saying, "Sarah will Drop a bunt 1B side for a hit (1B is slow to the ball). We have a steal play we use, gets Sarah to 2B as she is fast, Kathy bunts her to 3B and pressure on defense works in our favor, Beth drives Sarah in...... ** What if Sarah is OUT at 2B or doesn't even get on? We continue to try and make something happen. MOST times, the plan as described doesn't work as described,, BUT sometimes its close and we do score...... the image is in their head for what we want to do and when we score, I've had the girls and parents say "How did you know that?" - I didn't, I had a PLAN... we adjust the plan based on situations.... SUPPOSE Kathy is safe at 1B and we run a 1st & 3rd steal of 2B... NOW no out and 2 runners in scoring position... suppose they fielded the bunt poorly BOTH times... we may BUNT again...... UNTIL they prove they can handle it... unless I really feel good about Kathy's lofting a ball to the outfield/hitting right side or whatever..... we adjust CONFIDENTLY that we will make something happen with our plan to be positive and GENERATE runs...... ( I believe you should have a plan to MAKE things happen, NOT HOPE they happen... its a fault of mine.)
you ask if the batter did NOT put the 1st pitch in play - I didn't WANT her to... just wanted her wailing at the 1st pitch because being as aggressive as she is showing, she is committed to get those runs in..... what if she did put it in play? weak blooper for a hit? it HAPPENS, hard hit to infield and we hold runners and get the out or a popout?? who KNOWS... (I never say - Well, we have to strike every batter out to get out of this! what does THAT tell your defense???????? )
4 pitches on/out mentality! what if the batter fouls 3-4 after 1 or 2 balls?? Does your pitcher fall apart because your PLAN didn't work? NO... THATS my point... I really like your 4 pitch mentality.... it provides a realistic GOAL and you prove it works........ I tell my pitchers they should avoid ball 3 (MOST SITUATIONS), we like to throw 2 strikes in 1st 3 pitches if possible..... no more then 1 walk in 1st 4 innings and 1 walk remainder 3+ innings.... doesn't ALWAYS happen, but its a goal of ours to keep pitch count down and stay aggressive...
So concepts are similar in terms of being aggressive and confident, and yes - fearless. because I believe and I think pitchers should ALSO... most batters have SOME type of weakness that we attack and even if she puts the ball in play, odds are in our favor to get the out anyway..... I just don't EVER tell them I expect 21 strikouts or she should be able to strike out 21 batters.... tell her that and she loses confidence in what you tell her.. NOT realistic.... does anyone tell their batters you expect them ALL to go 3 for 3? no one makes outs?? now we are beyond ridiculous. "I want my batters fearless and confident they get a hit EVERY at-bat!"
you ask if the batter did NOT put the 1st pitch in play - I didn't WANT her to... just wanted her wailing at the 1st pitch because being as aggressive as she is showing, she is committed to get those runs in..... what if she did put it in play? weak blooper for a hit? it HAPPENS, hard hit to infield and we hold runners and get the out or a popout?? who KNOWS... (I never say - Well, we have to strike every batter out to get out of this! what does THAT tell your defense???????? )
4 pitches on/out mentality! what if the batter fouls 3-4 after 1 or 2 balls?? Does your pitcher fall apart because your PLAN didn't work? NO... THATS my point... I really like your 4 pitch mentality.... it provides a realistic GOAL and you prove it works........ I tell my pitchers they should avoid ball 3 (MOST SITUATIONS), we like to throw 2 strikes in 1st 3 pitches if possible..... no more then 1 walk in 1st 4 innings and 1 walk remainder 3+ innings.... doesn't ALWAYS happen, but its a goal of ours to keep pitch count down and stay aggressive...
So concepts are similar in terms of being aggressive and confident, and yes - fearless. because I believe and I think pitchers should ALSO... most batters have SOME type of weakness that we attack and even if she puts the ball in play, odds are in our favor to get the out anyway..... I just don't EVER tell them I expect 21 strikouts or she should be able to strike out 21 batters.... tell her that and she loses confidence in what you tell her.. NOT realistic.... does anyone tell their batters you expect them ALL to go 3 for 3? no one makes outs?? now we are beyond ridiculous. "I want my batters fearless and confident they get a hit EVERY at-bat!"
If you have adopted a "4 pitches on/out" mentality, then either your pitchers don't have very good control or you aren't facing good hitters. Had my DD used this mentality, she would have spent most of her college career keeping stats.
Every D1 team has 2 or 3 good hitters. Good hitters don't hit singles. They hit the ball over the left field fence. You can't give a good hitter a pitch that she can handle, or she will knock the ball into orbit.
A pitcher has to throw pitches at the edge of the umpire's strike zone. The pitcher cannot put one down the middle of the plate under any circumstances.
My DD's freshman college year in fall ball, she got down 3-0 to the #4 hitter. She put the next pitch down the middle of the plate. As far as I know, the ball still hasn't landed.
Every D1 team has 2 or 3 good hitters. Good hitters don't hit singles. They hit the ball over the left field fence. You can't give a good hitter a pitch that she can handle, or she will knock the ball into orbit.
A pitcher has to throw pitches at the edge of the umpire's strike zone. The pitcher cannot put one down the middle of the plate under any circumstances.
My DD's freshman college year in fall ball, she got down 3-0 to the #4 hitter. She put the next pitch down the middle of the plate. As far as I know, the ball still hasn't landed.
Jimginas, you are making this way too complicated. Sure, the situation sometimes dictates what you are throwing. Runner on third, no body out what do you do? If your best pitch is a drop ball, get yourself a groundout. If the hitter has a weakness you are aware of, pitch to that weakness. Keep it simple. A really good pitcher once told me, if a hitter can't hit a certain pitch, keep throwing it until they hit it. Why mix all kinds of stuff on hitters that you know you can get out with a particular pitch?
CP - I agree... I guess I'm trying too hard to provide rationale for not calling pitches to get a strikeout, vice situational.
Slugger is spot on about pitching to the edge of the UMPIRE'S strikezone.....
I do like hearing verying perspectives though... alway something to learn/pick up...
Slugger is spot on about pitching to the edge of the UMPIRE'S strikezone.....
I do like hearing verying perspectives though... alway something to learn/pick up...
Another thing I learned from someone a long time ago and that was "what is the toughest pitch to hit?" The toughest pitch to hit is a "ball". Successful pitchers learn how to expand the strike zone so that in key spots they are throwing "balls" to the hitter who gets herself out. That process starts with an 0-1 count on the batter, which makes strike one the most important pitch in a pitchers arsenal.
Slugger, that is an awful lot of assumption.
“your pitchers don't have very good control or you aren't facing good hitters.”
Based on what?
“A pitcher has to throw pitches at the edge of the umpire's strike zone. The pitcher cannot put one down the middle of the plate under any circumstances.”
Why would a 4 pitch mentality preclude pitching at the edge of the strike zone or out of the zone for that matter? A strike is anything that is not a ball! A foul ball on a pitch out of the zone tells me something about a hitter. A waste pitch out of the zone tells me very little.
“Every D1 team has 2 or 3 good hitters. Good hitters don't hit singles. They hit the ball over the left field fence. You can't give a good hitter a pitch that she can handle, or she will knock the ball into orbit.”
Nothing against good hitters but those bombs to left field are as often as not because the pitcher made a mistake. That mistake is often due to getting behind in the count and/or throwing the wrong pitch in a sequence vs. just throwing a bad pitch.
Batter 1 grounds out on the second pitch, batter 2 singles on the third pitch, batter 3 pops-up on the fourth pitch, and batter 4 strikes out on the seventh pitch. Did the pitcher achieve her 4 pitch on or out goal?
What is a good pitch count for a 7 inning game? And what is that divided by the number of batters faced?
How often does a pitcher go 2-0, 3-0, or 3-1 on a batter and then comes back to get a favorable result? Enough to make you wonder what made them bare down on the hitter AFTER falling behind. So, why not pitch like it is 3-0 all the time? IOW, why not summon up that 3-0 count focus for every pitch? No such thing as a waste pitch with a 4 pitch mentality.
How often does a pitcher go 0-2 and follow that with two fishing trips that the batter doesn’t even react to and the counts now 2-2?
Although I absolutely do not encourage it and prefer it not happen, I would almost rather see an occasional fat pitch than a pitch out of the zone that the batter recognizes out of the hand and ignores. At least there is a chance the batter will take it, miss it, or hit it weakly.
I am trying to speed the bat up or slow it down; trying to raise the eyes or lower them; etc. with every pitch. What I WANT is a definite reaction from the batter. I want my pitchers to understand that that is the process and that any pitch that doesn’t produce a reaction doesn’t advance the process. If I get a reaction I learn something, if the next pitch is wasted and I get no reaction I lose some of the advantage.
A 4 pitch mentality seems to keep them dialed in to making every pitch count. We might be 4 pitches into an at-bat, the pitcher is not worried about the fact that she didn’t get the batter on or out in 4 and neither am I – it’s a goal and a way of staying focused. I am thinking about what effect the pitches had on the batter. The pitcher is only worried about delivering the next pitch as her best pitch.
So far, 3 tournys, it is working out to just under 4 pitches per batter. Why would the pitcher be discouraged if an at-bat takes 9 pitches? She may be -6 from the previous batters – meaning she has thrown less than 4 pitches to a number of batters. If it works out that an outing produced 4.75 or even 6 pitches per batter maybe she’ll work harder next time. Additionally, we have a framework to discuss how to be more effective and we can compare results for when she meets the goal and when she falls short.
“your pitchers don't have very good control or you aren't facing good hitters.”
Based on what?
“A pitcher has to throw pitches at the edge of the umpire's strike zone. The pitcher cannot put one down the middle of the plate under any circumstances.”
Why would a 4 pitch mentality preclude pitching at the edge of the strike zone or out of the zone for that matter? A strike is anything that is not a ball! A foul ball on a pitch out of the zone tells me something about a hitter. A waste pitch out of the zone tells me very little.
“Every D1 team has 2 or 3 good hitters. Good hitters don't hit singles. They hit the ball over the left field fence. You can't give a good hitter a pitch that she can handle, or she will knock the ball into orbit.”
Nothing against good hitters but those bombs to left field are as often as not because the pitcher made a mistake. That mistake is often due to getting behind in the count and/or throwing the wrong pitch in a sequence vs. just throwing a bad pitch.
Batter 1 grounds out on the second pitch, batter 2 singles on the third pitch, batter 3 pops-up on the fourth pitch, and batter 4 strikes out on the seventh pitch. Did the pitcher achieve her 4 pitch on or out goal?
What is a good pitch count for a 7 inning game? And what is that divided by the number of batters faced?
How often does a pitcher go 2-0, 3-0, or 3-1 on a batter and then comes back to get a favorable result? Enough to make you wonder what made them bare down on the hitter AFTER falling behind. So, why not pitch like it is 3-0 all the time? IOW, why not summon up that 3-0 count focus for every pitch? No such thing as a waste pitch with a 4 pitch mentality.
How often does a pitcher go 0-2 and follow that with two fishing trips that the batter doesn’t even react to and the counts now 2-2?
Although I absolutely do not encourage it and prefer it not happen, I would almost rather see an occasional fat pitch than a pitch out of the zone that the batter recognizes out of the hand and ignores. At least there is a chance the batter will take it, miss it, or hit it weakly.
I am trying to speed the bat up or slow it down; trying to raise the eyes or lower them; etc. with every pitch. What I WANT is a definite reaction from the batter. I want my pitchers to understand that that is the process and that any pitch that doesn’t produce a reaction doesn’t advance the process. If I get a reaction I learn something, if the next pitch is wasted and I get no reaction I lose some of the advantage.
A 4 pitch mentality seems to keep them dialed in to making every pitch count. We might be 4 pitches into an at-bat, the pitcher is not worried about the fact that she didn’t get the batter on or out in 4 and neither am I – it’s a goal and a way of staying focused. I am thinking about what effect the pitches had on the batter. The pitcher is only worried about delivering the next pitch as her best pitch.
So far, 3 tournys, it is working out to just under 4 pitches per batter. Why would the pitcher be discouraged if an at-bat takes 9 pitches? She may be -6 from the previous batters – meaning she has thrown less than 4 pitches to a number of batters. If it works out that an outing produced 4.75 or even 6 pitches per batter maybe she’ll work harder next time. Additionally, we have a framework to discuss how to be more effective and we can compare results for when she meets the goal and when she falls short.
Jimginas
I understand you didn’t want the batter to put the first pitch in play and I understand you were hoping she would wail away and you would be up a strike because she was too aggressive.
But, this time she doesn’t react to the change-up at all because it bounced in the dirt. You call the drop as planned and she fouls it straight back and your 1-1.
You now have info on one pitch - the drop - and would prefer she hit a grounder to the left side. Do you still go with the planned change-up hoping to produce the desired result?
Using a 4 pitch plan I’m thinking in terms of 2 pitches to get the job done. I may decide to go up and in to speed her bat up even more or I may decide to do something different. If I get a strike I’ve got options, if it’s a ball I evaluate what effect it had and that gives me options. A pitch out of the zone that got her hands moving and her eyes up may be exactly the right pitch for the situation.
Sometimes the sequence dictates that you can’t throw a pitch that will likely produce the desired grounder, at least not on the next pitch because the previous two pitches have led the batter right to the spot your pitcher is trying to hit – a place where homeruns live.
OTOH, I may go after them with the drop as the first pitch. If they hit the grounder I'll take the out. If they foul it off, miss it, or take for a strike - options. If it's a ball - other options. Each pitch leads to the next, no patterns develop and we manipulate the batter based on the situation and the outcome of the previous pitch. We just try to do it in four pitches or less per batter. Call it an adaptive strike out mentality.
I am not intending to pick on you and I hope it doesn’t come off that way, just using your comments to illustrate a point. I don’t want my pitchers to ever think anything different than another of your comments, “There are some batters that I'll tell my pitcher in the dugout before we go back out on defense that we aren't wasting pitches…”. I want my pitches to think that way about every batter. I don’t expect my pitchers to strike everyone out, but I don’t mind them thinking it’s possible. I challenge them to get it done in 4, that leaves some wiggle room. It doesn’t always happen, but it does seem to help them stay focused on making every pitch count.
I understand you didn’t want the batter to put the first pitch in play and I understand you were hoping she would wail away and you would be up a strike because she was too aggressive.
But, this time she doesn’t react to the change-up at all because it bounced in the dirt. You call the drop as planned and she fouls it straight back and your 1-1.
You now have info on one pitch - the drop - and would prefer she hit a grounder to the left side. Do you still go with the planned change-up hoping to produce the desired result?
Using a 4 pitch plan I’m thinking in terms of 2 pitches to get the job done. I may decide to go up and in to speed her bat up even more or I may decide to do something different. If I get a strike I’ve got options, if it’s a ball I evaluate what effect it had and that gives me options. A pitch out of the zone that got her hands moving and her eyes up may be exactly the right pitch for the situation.
Sometimes the sequence dictates that you can’t throw a pitch that will likely produce the desired grounder, at least not on the next pitch because the previous two pitches have led the batter right to the spot your pitcher is trying to hit – a place where homeruns live.
OTOH, I may go after them with the drop as the first pitch. If they hit the grounder I'll take the out. If they foul it off, miss it, or take for a strike - options. If it's a ball - other options. Each pitch leads to the next, no patterns develop and we manipulate the batter based on the situation and the outcome of the previous pitch. We just try to do it in four pitches or less per batter. Call it an adaptive strike out mentality.
I am not intending to pick on you and I hope it doesn’t come off that way, just using your comments to illustrate a point. I don’t want my pitchers to ever think anything different than another of your comments, “There are some batters that I'll tell my pitcher in the dugout before we go back out on defense that we aren't wasting pitches…”. I want my pitches to think that way about every batter. I don’t expect my pitchers to strike everyone out, but I don’t mind them thinking it’s possible. I challenge them to get it done in 4, that leaves some wiggle room. It doesn’t always happen, but it does seem to help them stay focused on making every pitch count.
