Slider?

[halskinner]

Unfortunately IT CANNOT BE THROWN BY ANYONE THAT USES OPEN MECHANICS, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. /QUOTE]

Can you explain what it is about "open mechanics" that doesn't allow the pitcher to pitch some type of movement pitches?

To throw a cutter requires the hips to close and the elbow to come forward to a point just ahead of the hips.. The follow through with the hand requires the hips to fully close. They are not slammed shut but they must fully close. You cannot do this and keep the hips open, they must close. There is a little more to it but that is enough for this discussion.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

I'm no FP expert, but do know a little about pitching baseball.

The main purpose for a slider is to change the mental flight path a batter see's the pitch and it's speed. If all you have is a curve, second or third time I see it I will sit on that pitch. ( baseball term meaning soon as I recognize it I know exactly where to swing ) Rotation is fairly close, speed is faster on the slider, where a curve breaks more but slower. ( which can be termed mixing speeds in FP )

Curveballs have more of a 12 to 6 drop to them. Sliders are faster and have a 1 to 7 drop.
A slider moves more right-to-left when thrown by a right-handed pticher with a little movement down.
A curve ball sinks as well as curves, and a slider is thrown a little harder and has more of a side to side break and not as much sink.

Again, the purpose of a "half breaking" pitch is to change the flight path, keeps the batter from picking up the pitch and "your" breaking spot. Plus the speed is "off" meaning less than a fastball, but more than the curve.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Abbott has a fastball. Evansville Fast Pitch - Monica Abbott Pitching DVD

Yukiko Ueno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Ueno has a fastball.

Like I said before, few can make it work ( and I don't mean pure speed ) the ones IMO who can use it have a dead spin on it. Which in BB terms means the revs are enough for the batters eyes, but very little movement. It should either be a set up pitch outside the zone ( ball ) for the next breaking pitch in the zone ( strike ). Or just the opposite, breaking ball out of the zone ( ball ) then slide the FB same flight path from release ( batter thinks is going to be another ( ball ) but hangs the corner for a called strike.

The purpose of a "half break" is not always a K. Again, if you see my curve a few times a good batter will know exactly where that spot will be. ( sitting on a pitch ) If I see a batter "sitting" ( maybe fouling the curve off ) a good half break will induce a topped ball ( infield hit ) or under the ball ( for a pop up ).

Got my book out now, DD has 42 K's in her last 32 innings. 2 games ago she had a streak of 11 personal put outs in a row from the mound. ( including K's, and fielding the topped hits and pop ups ) And these games are during the big 30 and 52 team HS tournaments with schools from 9 states, not playing local gimmie games.

And yes, she will throw a FB from time to time. But she can make it work.

 

[CoachFP]

The typical definition of cutter is down and sideways, and Hal, I do think you pitched years ago (which is fine, so did Joyce). So it is really old school.
I pitched old school, too, and I know my old style is long dead and gone, so who cares? I do think, a lot, about what I write and have done so in developing the way I teach and pitch today, so that is silly comment.

End result: A half breaking pitch today in softball is a mistake, let's say homerun (or let's say a drop curve/homerun, or peel drop/homerun (tend to not move enough compared to rollover, they just can't), or hanger/homerun ). Even a half breaking rise is deadly to the pitcher.

The mph difference between movement and fastball is small and does not make for much in between (and most young pitchers are not that precise with speed). Plus the fastball is not thrown, so I can see softballers not needing something halfway less in movement. Osterman sure didn't want to throw harder with less movement.

I guess in your terminology "Old School" is wrong. I don't know what Old School is but I do know what "Wrong School" is. If you thing all of these D-1 pitchers balls move that much you are sadly mistaken. Some can make it move fairly well and most, if they can make it move, only have one such movement pitch. Your infamous "Screwball" is an angle pitch and really doesnt move. A ball with a little cut thrown in a good location is effective at any level.

 

[Uncle Charlie]

My youngest daughter took lessons for two years from Hal about 10 years ago, until he changed jobs and was no longer available. I've caught pitches for all 3 of my daughters and have the aches and pains now to prove it. One of the pitches that Hal worked on with my daughter was a cutter. I think people get caught up in the semantics of the name of the pitch. Is it a cutter, slider, drop screwball? Hal called it a cutter and it moved differently than any of her other pitches. I've never pitched or seen a baseball version of a cutter "live", so I don't know.
My daughter was a right handed pitcher. From the bucket view, the pitch moved from right to left, like a screwball, but was slower and had a lot more break, both down and in to a right handed batter. When she threw it correctly, it broke so much that I had difficulty catching it because of the unusual movement compared to her other pitches. I remember laughing one time because it moved so much that although I got my glove on it, I couldn't hold on to it. Unfortunately, she had a difficult time with command of the pitch. Sometimes it would break and hit the foot of a right handed batter, or even go behind the batter, or the catcher couldn't handle it. Of course if it didn't break, the batter might do what a batter does to a pitch that doesn't break. We threw it mostly to left handers, even slappers, because of the movement and speed change and there was no risk of hitting the batter.
It was a pitch, like many pitches, that if you could have good command, it would be awesome and definitely effective.

 

[sluggers]

Uncle Charlie, I get it. Thanks! A cutter is basically a screw-drop, and I can see how it would be easier to get the correct spin if the pitcher released the ball after closing. It would be difficult to throw for a woman who has less upper body strength than a man, but I can see how a man might be able to throw it effectively.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

My friends, a cutter moves towards a pitchers glove. A screw will break away from the glove. I know it can become very confusing going from baseball to softball, trust me I'm lost more than most.

[video]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Cut_Fastball.gif[/video]

You'll have to click the link, I'm having some tech problems for some reason.

 

[halskinner]

My friends, a cutter moves towards a pitchers glove. A screw will break away from the glove. I know it can become very confusing going from baseball to softball, trust me I'm lost more than most.

[video]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Cut_Fastball.gif[/video]

You'll have to click the link, I'm having some tech problems for some reason.

GD, one must take inro consideration that in many cases whatever the hand, wrist and fingers do in an OVERHAND re;ease. the ball will move exactly opposite of that in an UNDERHANC release.

Back in 1979, one of the guys on my team was a former minor leaguer for a MLB team, an oufielder, He was friends with one of the pitchers on that team that showed him how to grio and throq a slider with a baseball. My teammate then showed me. It turned out to be a cut rise when I threw it. With the same release in baseball it was supposed to be a down and out (RH pitcher to RH batter)

Again, I found out tyhat that particular release, grrip and fp;;pw through gave me the opposite, it rose instead of dropping like it does in baseball.

I played around with the same frip and with different release points and angles of the wrist at release. I showed that grip to a much older pitcher soon after and he told me that was the grip you use for a cutter in softball. The cutter, when timed and thrown correctly was the opposite of a flat curveball..

There is a reason it is called a 'Cutter', but I will not go into that on this board as I consider this to be a VERY dangerous pitch as far as batter safety goes. I have only taught this pitch to maybe 7 or 8 students over the years. As UncleCharlie explained, it is somewhat unpredictable depending on everything that goes into the release and follow through.. If the timing is a little off and the follow through is a little off, it breaks in and down. If everythig is done perfectly it will break sharply to the inside like it ricocheted off a vertical pole.

It can break SO had and sharply there is next to NO CGANCE the batter can react and do anything to defend themselves// As Uncle Charlie related, if the speed is a little slower than the pitch has been practiced, but everything else is correct, it will break sooner and can go behind the batters back, it can break that much. I had to be very careful who I taught this to, the had to have exceptional ability and control. Uncle Charlie's daughter was one of those. This pitch can break 5 feet even with the 10u 11-inch ball, the one so famous for little movement because of the flatter seams thanb the 12-inch..

I had to worl with pitchers I taught this to ro imagine the glove was 3-feet to the opposite side of the glove from the batter. The catchers always hated this pitch and many times. It is definitely a pitch that can cause many and even serious injuries.

At any rate, the cutter that I taught would be flat and break sharply to the inside, RH batter and pitcher, It sounds like Uncle Charlie and his daughter decided to only use that putch against LH batters fir the vbatters safety sake.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Hal, I appreciate you taking the time to post. Though I was a pretty decent college BB pitcher, my knowledge of softball pitching is minimal after the point of mechanics, theory, and what works primarily for my left-handed DD. She sounds like you because she will move her grips around frequently to find a "new" pitch or movement.

And I understand the basics behind opposing effects with overhand and underhand throws. Since I have spent too many years on a mound and then trying to teach the only girl in the family this approach to pitching, it has been a challenge. I have enough trouble explaining the movements because she is a lefty. So for the 99% of RH pitchers out there, outside ( to a RH batter ) is a curve. My DD's is a screw. Same for RHP inside is their screw, my DD's is a curve. At least that is what we are taught in BB.

But I do see what your saying, and I will have to remember that in the future.

 

[ArmWhip]

A slider has tipped bullet spin, how the axis is tipped determines what kind of break it has. In baseball the curve is more of drop with over the top spin, doesn't make a lot sense to me but that is how it is defined. A riseball is thrown very much like a baseball curve. Think of the riseball as an upcurve with the same basic hand/finger action except that instead of over the top you throw it from 'down under'.