Screwball Video

[starsnuffer]

Are you implying arm slot and wrist slot to tilt axis of the normal "conventional" grip is robbing the effectiveness of the pitch ( or any pitch ).

Not really. I'm saying that any movement in the direction other then towards the catcher robs the pitch of energy that could otherwise be put into a pitch. IE if the arm circle is not on a plane parallel to the path of the ball (whatever angle chosen), then the pitcher has to expend energy to do something besides throw the ball. In this case, it is taking a moving mass (pitchers arm and ball) and altering the trajectory through the course of the pitch. Energy expended here cannot be expended elsewhere.

I agree with you that pitchers can move balls more by altering speeds and they need to figure out what works for them. One of the most effective pitches at the 14-16u level seems to be an off-speed drop ball. Off-speed curves also have a name in Fastpitch. They are called home runs. So, it seems that the direction of break is also important to note here. I have not observed an off-speed screwball or an off-speed rise ball. Off-speed fastballs are usually called meatballs so I'll rule that one out too. I'm left with thinking that variations of a dropping pitch, such as a drop, crop, or drop curve might be the only viable off-speed pitches in Fastpicth. Come to think of it, we even want our change-ups to drop or "fall off the table" just as they reach the plate.

-W

 

[starsnuffer]

My quest is to know if a true screwball spin is possible and to see how it is thrown.

I love your experiment, Ken!

Let me add some info that will probably confuse things further. Ball spin is not accomplished by the rotation of the wrist. Ball spin is accomplished by the fingers.

Cat Osterman throws a bullet spin/doorknob fastball (in practice, never seen it in a game). I don't think anyone will argue that Cat pitches with solid IR mechanics. The bullet-spin fastball is accomplished by "snapping" the fingers at release of the ball. You can do this with a pencil too to see what I mean.

Now, clearly IR mechanics do not interfere with or at least disallow spinning the ball in a direction other then how the forearm is rotating against the bicep. In theory, it may be possible to alter the position of the hand/wrist 90 degrees off the way Cat throws her fastball (say by bending the wrist) to impart the spin necessary for a screwball. It's the same direction as a bullet spin fastball, it's just a different plane. Clearly, having long fingers and a good snap spin come into play here.

So, again, it isn't the wrist that spins the ball, it's the fingers. Even the oft-confused misnamed "rollover drop" is not spun by the motion of the wrist, but how the ball leaves the fingers.

-W

 

[Ken B]

Not confusing at all, however I'd say the wrist is used to orient the fingers for the spin. I love to watch Cat's releases. Her arm is like rubber!

 

[Ken B]

The off speed rise does exist--its called a flip change!

Have to add, we had an up and coming LL pitcher who started going to a local PC at about age 11. The coach did not teach grip, but did teach: bend at release and step style. One day I watched while he was working on what I thought was a flip change. I said something about it and he said he was actually teaching a rise ball! He was a very nice guy and the families that went to him loved him dearly. It wasn't until they hit HS that they realized their kids were so far behind.

 

[CoachFP]

For a right handed pitcher, a true screwball would be thrown with the wrist slightly up the right side of the ball with the follow throw to the left leg. The ball would come off spinning 11 to 5 and would break down and in. It is natural although somewhat difficult for some to master. Especially those who start throwing curve balls early. I have thrown many good ones by accident and when concentrating, can get reasonable movement inside. That is really the only way to do it. Contorting your wrist and hand and stepping left and leaning right is "smoke and mirrors" as someone has described.

 

[Stonecrabs02]

My DD steps to the left to get her hips out of the way. When she didnt, the ball always went too far to the right. Maybe she has just been taught wrong.

 

[Adman]

For a right handed pitcher, a true screwball would be thrown with the wrist slightly up the right side of the ball with the follow throw to the left leg. The ball would come off spinning 11 to 5 and would break down and in.

CoachFP, I'm not a pitcher, so I really don't know, but I thought the index finger should be the last to touch, while coming more up the left side of the ball? Time to experiment, I guess.

In any case, look at the below video at about 00:59, Amanda Scarborough explaining the screwball:

"...as i release it, I'm going to push through and finish away."

She appears to be explaining continuing her already maxed out External Rotation (OUCH!).

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5Q9ww4Ld4Z0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Key frames from above video on "push through" or E/R.

<img src="http://i47.tinypic.com/2vweouw.jpg" />

Following is what her arm is actually doing.

Side view. A bit difficult to see.

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/2afmkd1.gif" />

Rear view. Easier to see.

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/2h3dhy1.gif" />

Not at all what she was explaining.

 

[starsnuffer]

What Amanda is doing there is peeling her finger off side of the ball to impart spin, much the way a peel drop works. Her actual pitching motion looks different from the way she explains it in the breakdown. If there is indeed proper screwball spin there, that's the only way I can see her accomplishing it. Otherwise it looks like a fastball to me.

-W

 

[tojo]

Supination and Pronation - YouTube

 

[BoardMember]

Who is this Mr. "big bad" Right?

He is a simple word called "truth"...........

At what point does the forearm and hand rotate toward the center of the body

Through this entire delivery........This is INternal Rotation.........NOT EXternal Rotation........

and where is the palm down and back which by the way is the definition of IR/pronation.

WHY do you keep using the words Internal Rotation and Pronation as if one cannot exist without the other??? Is this your attempt at diversion?...........

You are entitled to your opinion but not your own definition. That has been determined by those a lot smarter than you.

Internal (Medial) Rotation is not my definition.........It's a bio-mechanical movement of the human body that I have been teaching for many years. I only brought the term here 3 years ago so people would understand what a proper high level delivery consisted of with regard to how to properly THROW a softball underhand........And achieve velocity and movement not well understood when I first joined this pitching forum..........You STILL don't get.........And you seem to be on an island by yourself in this regards........

I do see the angle of the arm circle coming into release and then the arm rotating away from the center of the body and palm up. Which by the way is the defintion of ER/supination. Sorry, you don't get it.

Yes........You've made it clear "what you see".........Even when slo-motion video PROVES you wrong chicken little.......

NO ONE........EXCEPT a sub-optimal BOWLING mechanic delivery style, EXTERNALLY ROTATES ANYTHING DURING RELEASE..........NO MATTER WHAT THEY, OR YOU SAY........

This is the entire reason I posted about Internal Rotation.........Because people were trying to "do" what they were "told" by teachers and coaches who had NO IDEA what really happens......Even IF they were considered "EKSPURTS" at teaching/coachng by many people.......And it was KILLING current and future pitching students.........

IMO..........Just like you are doing here..........