role of the hands

[humpty]

What do the hands do in a high level swing

 

[mennitti]

Too many "experts" here with unwavering opinions. The bottom line is your batter has to be able to make contact. Muscle memory only goes so far, when they are in a pressure situation most of their swings are not the same as practice.

In my current opinion hands are limited. The core muscles are significantly larger muscle groups than the wrists, forearms, and triceps. We try to train the larger muscle groups and focus on those.

 

[softballphreak]

The hands could just go along for the ride. Or they could torque an already moving bat to add more acceleration to the barrel. Which way do you think would give the barrel the most velocity into contact?

 

[humpty]

What do the hands do in "throw the barrel"? What do the hands do in "turn the barrel"? How do you get extension if the hands are just along for the ride.

 

[softballphreak]

What do the hands do in "throw the barrel"? What do the hands do in "turn the barrel"? How do you get extension if the hands are just along for the ride.

The hands torque the bat at the handle to help accelerate the barrel in the throw. In the turn, I believe they are saying to torque the barrel towards the catcher—not sure.

As far as extension after contact, unless something is done to change the direction of the barrel it should continue through impact with the ball. Rolling the wrists too soon, for example, could cut short the extension. There shouldn't be an extra effort to extend the barrel; it should be a result of what happened before it got to that point.

 

[jbooth]

What do the hands do in "throw the barrel"? What do the hands do in "turn the barrel"? How do you get extension if the hands are just along for the ride.

My OPINION based upon the lengthy arguments we've had is; "turn the barrel" is an early movement, and "throw the barrel" occurs immediately after the turn.

Even after much discussion and people asking what "turn the barrel" means, it seems to still not be totally clear.

IMO the early movement of the barrel that occurs as the arms/elbows move into the launching position, is not caused by hand/wrist force, and it isn't a conscious effort to get the barrel moving. It is getting the barrel into position to be thrown.

Throwing the barrel DOES use hand/wrist force. Technically it is ulnar deviation of both wrists with a small amount of supination of the lead wrist. IOW, you "snap" the wrists, as Ted Williams said to do.

The evidence that supports what I say is based upon what MLB hitters SAY, combined with what you can see in video of their swing.

Some people point to the blur that often shows in video, of the early movement of the bat.

However, if you look at the wrist/forearm angle, and the ulna and radius of the top hand, the angle does not change and the radius does not supinate early. Add to that, that the shaft or middle of the bat remains close to their back shoulder and it is clear to me, that no hand force is being applied to move the barrel rearward.

Add to that, that you can simply hold the bat and watch yourself in the mirror, and the bat will move from above your head to a spot nearer the catcher, simply by tilting and starting to turn. You can't keep the barrel above your head, but you don't need any hand action to make it move.

Pros say that they try to keep the barrel up there, and you can see that they keep the palms near vertical for a long time. They are not trying to move the barrel early. They say that they lag the barrel behind. They say that they throw it down directly at the ball. They do not say that they whirl it around at the ball.

As far as "the role of the hands";

They need to control the handle and make sure that the barrel lags behind all other movement and is whipped around the body, and the hands. To get maximum acceleration of the barrel, the hands must change direction. They must not pull the bat along its length.

This is what "turn the corner" and "keep the hands close" and "keep the hands inside" all mean. You cannot get maximum whip and tangential acceleration, just using wrist snap, or just pulling the handle around the body. You need a synchronized action of turning, pulling in, and snapping.

You don't have to swing in a perfect circle. You need to "turn the corner" as some people describe it; and snap the wrists as you pull the hands inward. THAT, is "throwing the barrel."

Note how long his hands and the bat stay nearly vertical.

Note how long the shaft of the bat, stays near the back shoulder in both swings above and below, and note that the top hand bones do not change position;

Above; prior to the point where the lines appear, he has done nothing with his hands. He just tilts and changes arm position. If you want to call that change in arm position, "turning the barrel" I have no issue with that. But, the hands don't do it, and he isn't thinking about it.

At the point where the lines disappear, is when he starts to throw the barrel, and at that point, hand and wrist action occur. He snaps the barrel down toward the ball as he continues to tilt and turn. He uses ulnar deviation of both hands to snap it.

His main thought and feel is of the throw and snap. Not turning it rearward.

Evidence to support that is based upon watching almost every MLB hitter do what they do in the video below, which coincides with what they SAY they do. Throw the barrel directly at the ball;

 

[redhotcoach]

The hands torque the bat at the handle to help accelerate the barrel in the throw. In the turn, I believe they are saying to torque the barrel towards the catcher—not sure.

As far as extension after contact, unless something is done to change the direction of the barrel it should continue through impact with the ball. Rolling the wrists too soon, for example, could cut short the extension. There shouldn't be an extra effort to extend the barrel; it should be a result of what happened before it got to that point.

Yes sbp...I agree! And well turning the barrel REARWARD helps me get the rear leg/hip to whip the barrel around the corner. Turning/torqueing and remove the word rearward is going to do the same action. Too many kids a see pull down the length of the barrel, when taught how to turn the barrel, they square up much quicker and efficiently. So much so that (my own kid too), several people I message with and work with have a short term struggle with timing.

 

[jbooth]

Yes sbp...I agree! And well turning the barrel REARWARD helps me get the rear leg/hip to whip the barrel around the corner. Turning/torqueing and remove the word rearward is going to do the same action. Too many kids I see, pull down the length of the barrel, when taught how to turn the barrel, they square up much quicker and efficiently. So much so that (my own kid too), several people I message with and work with have a short term struggle with timing.

I certainly agree that you don't "pull down the length of the barrel."

The barrel goes rearward, but I'm not clear on how you think that happens bio-mechanically.

 

[humpty]

Jbooth. I don't understand turn the barrel but I do understand throwingthe barrel. The snap you refer to would that be the same as "hammer" .

 

[Eric F]

Jbooth. I don't understand turn the barrel...

Read the first 2-3 pages of this for a clarification of the concept...
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/15939-turn-barrel.html

There is heated debate about what drives the turning of the barrel, but basically the phrase describes the rotation of the bat through the swing.