Popularity of Softball in your state, gaining or losing?

[PEPPERS]

I see a SB practice where a kid spends most of their time standing around and it bores me to watch, I can’t imagine how bored the kids feels. Coaches should have a practice that is fast paced and entertaining to the players. I also hate the games for the younger kids where kids walk, your side scores 5 runs on walks and then you switch sides and the same thing happens, they got to be a better way.

In our area in GA, soccer, volleyball is played in the fall and winter no lacrosse teams so far, so softball still has a good following although it has not grown IMO. The rec pushes soccer instead of football to the boys, a pair of shorts and a tee shirt is cheaper than a football uniform and that is why our football team is like 0 for 50 the past few seasons.

 

[BobInMadison]

I am always glad when somebody has the guts to "go there" and I appreciate your insights Bob. I have a sneaky suspicion though if you didn't reveal your non-white status I wonder if your thread would have been "allowed".

Well I am a very strong part American Indian and does that give me the right to speak on this here.....? We will find out.

In WI I feel there is a very white-based participation to softball. But if you get around the country you will find differing bases for participation. Ya get in the south and you will find allot of non-white and then again out in TX & CA.

I feel WI is a bit of a unique state in allot of regards especially when ya add the fact of 9 months of winter. Do you have an opinion on the nation as a whole on this?

I am mostly white (a member of the Oklahoma Cherokee tribe), but with an Asian wife, my kids are less than half white.

In Madison most (but certainly not all) of the non-white kids playing softball are either adopted, or else have a white or mostly white father. I remember going to a pitching practice session once, and not one of the girls were white, but all the fathers were white or mostly white.

I am glad that there are parts of the country where softball is popular among the non-white population. It just isn't like that in Wisconsin. Granted, many parts of the states have very few non-whites, but the areas that DO have non-whites, the game is losing popularity.

That being said, I have NEVER seen white players treat non-white players any differently than they would a white player. The players are judged on the content of their character, and the quality of their play.

I have a friend in Madison who is making some effort to bring more poor and/or non-white kids into the game, which will take a LOT of his time if he is successful. And, it would be great for the kids, too. My DS was on his HS track team for a year, and the discipline of sports was very good for all of the kids. The kids who did track and field were far more likely to graduate HS, and were much more prepared in their lives.

To be blunt, softball in Wisconsin can survive in the suburbs and most rural areas as a white sport, but no so much in the larger cities. Ever notice that the strong tournament teams are either in suburbs or in rural areas? (Although to be fair, it is easier to put together a good sports complex in a less populated area).

In the Big Eight conference (actually 10 teams) with the big schools in Dane County, Janesville and Beloit, the best teams are almost always the suburban schools (Verona, Middleton, Sun Prairie). Although my kids' HS in Madison is getting a few Bandits coming in the next couple of years, so that might improve things.

Interesting, LaX has not really taken off here. If you say "that game with sticks", most people will assume you mean hockey, which is quite popular here. This is another "white" sport, so it is much more popular in the suburbs. Many of the same girls play softball and hockey around here.

Volleyball and basketball, which can be played indoors in bad weather, are popular. Soccer is growing.

Ultimate Frisbee is THE fastest growing sport in Madison. I live a couple of blocks from where many of the adult league games are played. Up to 4 games going on at a time in that park, so my kids can't really use the backstop if a game is going on.

 

[BobInMadison]

I see a SB practice where a kid spends most of their time standing around and it bores me to watch, I can’t imagine how bored the kids feels. Coaches should have a practice that is fast paced and entertaining to the players. I also hate the games for the younger kids where kids walk, your side scores 5 runs on walks and then you switch sides and the same thing happens, they got to be a better way.

In our area in GA, soccer, volleyball is played in the fall and winter no lacrosse teams so far, so softball still has a good following although it has not grown IMO. The rec pushes soccer instead of football to the boys, a pair of shorts and a tee shirt is cheaper than a football uniform and that is why our football team is like 0 for 50 the past few seasons.

You are 100% right about the softball practices. DD#1 quit softball, but said the practices were more fun than the games. The only thing she liked about the games was stealing bases, which she did a LOT. She may come back to the game just for the comradarie and the practices.

DD #3 is very much into softball, but complains if the practice is "boring", meaning they spend all their time standing around.

(If anyone wonders why I don't mention DD #2-- she won't play softball, even rec league. She would be an average rec league player, and doesn't want to be compared to her sisters, who are well above average).

 

[marriard]

In Florida the sport is still rapidly growing - but I worry because for the most part it is travel that is growing, not the feeder rec programs.

Our local rec program is growing because of strong leadership, excellent facilities and picking up all the rec players from surrounding cities where rec has not gone so well because of lack of support.

If I look at the numbers from within the old rec boundary from when I started in the program we are up about 5% up so not much over the past few years - that can be hidden because overall we are at 70% growth when you add in all the extra players we have picked up from the surrounding areas.

 

[BobInMadison]

Bob, I find your posts offensive, being from a family with mixed ethnicity and immigrants, living near an urban area. I think you need to read some things from Arthur Ashe and others. Part of the reason girls soccer is not popular is gender disparity in the underlying cultures, OK.

I think you are veering off on the wrong path here.

OILF, I am asking these questions seriously, and with respect. The comments I make are to give my views.

First, why do you find the posts offensive?

I am also from a muti-racial family with a lot of immigrants in the extended family. I have blood relatives with ancestry from 4 different races. I have blood relatives who had family wiped out in the Holocaust. I have blood relatives who are respected elders in Indian tribes. I have been to family gatherings where 5 different languages were spoken in the same day. Sometimes when my wife, my MIL and I are all talking, we need 3 different languages to communicate. It has usually been my experience that the folks from multi-cultural environments are more comfortable talking about the issues, which is why i was a bit surprised by you being offended. As far as urban goes, I was born in New York, as was my father and older brother, and most of my kids, I met my wife in NY, and I have lots of relatives in NY. I spend 1 or 2 vacations every year in a housing project in Manhattan that is quite ethnically diverse.


Second, do you think it would be a good idea for organized softball to reach out to non-white players in those parts of the country where 99+% of the softball players are white?

Quite seriously, I VERY rarely see any non-white players on the teams from outside Madison. I could count the non-white non-Madison girls I have seen on the fingers of one hand, and still have most fingers left over. I just don't see the game surviving in Madison if the teams don't get a lot more diverse very quickly.

Third, is there any way to address the issue if one doesn't talk about it?

I mentioned that one of my friends is putting time into trying to get kids from socio-economic groups that generally don't participate in softball into the game. I can talk about the issue with him, and he is really making an effort. Or, are we just supposed to not notice, and then wonder why teams from suburban and rural areas kick the posteriors of the kids from the cities?

I won't discuss this further, but I am quite seriously confused as to why you consider this offensive. If you don't want to explain in public, feel free to send me a PM.

 

[riseball]

Bob, I find your posts offensive, being from a family with mixed ethnicity and immigrants, living near an urban area. I think you need to read some things from Arthur Ashe and others. Part of the reason girls soccer is not popular is gender disparity in the underlying cultures, OK.

I think you are veering off on the wrong path here.

If you are going to carp about a post being offensive it is incumbent upon you as the offended to provide reason why they would be viewed as such by those with reasonable sensibilities. Otherwise your comments are nothing more than rhetoric.

 

[Slappers]

Bob,

I see what you are saying. In my end of the county alone, there are big differences in softball programs amongst middle and high schools. The older section of the county, which generally speaking is lower income and houses more migrant people, has very few softball players. One high school had to give up its team as they only had 9 players and one got injured. They should have a varsity and jv team but again, only had 9 total players.

Now this area around DC is very diverse. Every race and nationality is represented on every sports field here. The focus in the lower income side of things seems to be basketball and football with a little extra attention on baseball. Why do I say that? Because those teams are very good and compete for state championships every year. The so called "white" sports such as field hockey, softball, swimming have low numbers of minorities (I hate that word btw) in that section of the county and they sometimes combine schools to make a team.

Where I differ from your perspective is that it isn't necessarily a financial thing but more of a coaching thing. The softball coaches who are in charge of programs are terrible. They know they aren't getting any talent so they can't find quality coaching. I don't fault the people who volunteer to coach as they are trying but things could be different. Coaches coach what they know. With the powerhouse football and basketball programs they have created, that is what they know, so that is what is coached.

Field Hockey is growing rapidly around here too.

 

[sluggers]

(This is a great topic. Please try to stay away from *racial stereotypes*. For example, the statement, "Rich white fathers do not want their DDs playing with riff-raff" is a racial stereotype. I'm confident rich fathers of every ethnicity do no like their DDs playing with "riff-raff". Then, someone says, "I'm offended." The next person says, "No, you aren't.", and we are off to the races, so to speak. If someone is offended, then they are offended. Whether that is sufficient to close the thread is, of course, a different issue. Please, try to exercise a little restraint. As I've pointed out before, I can delete the messages a lot faster than you can write them.)

As to minorities in softball, the problem goes much deeper.

First, there is economics. It costs a lot of money to play softball. It is probably the most expensive sport to play. And, to be really "good" at the sport, a kid needs lots of individual coaching.

Second, for better or worse, playing baseball/softball is now done exclusively through organizations. Kids can't simply wander down to the local park and find a game of baseball/softball. I haven't seen a pickup game of baseball/softball in 15 years. In the last 40 years, I have seen two pickup games of baseball. On the other hand, I see pick up games of basketball about every day. I'm see pickup games of soccer a couple of times a month.

Third, softball/baseball are from a different era, and I'm not sure they fit well into society. Softball/baseball are supposed to be leisurely...you go to the game, you eat something, you watch the game, you talk with friends and family, and you hang out. The game really isn't set up to be an all-consuming spectator sport. (Until the advent of instant replay, neither was football...) Players essentially sit for 50% of the game and talk with their friends.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

I don't see many wealthy people in softball, here. I see people that probably make less than my husband and me. I have one wealthy family, out of the 25 that I see regularly. Mostly, I see divorced mothers, trying to do the best for their family. The $20.00 that they pay me for a lesson, does not come easy to them.

They find a way, to do it for their girls. I supply gloves, bats, and cleats, to a few more girls each year. I do know that grandpa has bank rolled one of my long time students for years.

Swimming is big here, and soccer. Tucson recently wanted more soccer fields, so the city council transferred funds from the roads budget. Soccer pours a lot of money into the community. You don't need much equipment for swimming and for soccer, you can get a used ball and a pair of cleats, pretty cheaply. Good Will has a nice selection of shin guards.

 

[BobInMadison]

(This is a great topic. Please try to stay away from *racial stereotypes*. For example, the statement, "Rich white fathers do not want their DDs playing with riff-raff" is a racial stereotype. I'm confident rich fathers of every ethnicity do no like their DDs playing with "riff-raff". Then, someone says, "I'm offended." The next person says, "No, you aren't.", and we are off to the races, so to speak. If someone is offended, then they are offended. Please, try to exercise a little restraint. As I've pointed out before, I can delete the messages a lot faster than you can write them.)

As to minorities in softball, the problem goes much deeper.

First, there is economics. It costs a lot of money to play softball. It is probably the most expensive sport to play. And, to be really "good" at the sport, a kid needs lots of individual coaching.

Second, for better or worse, playing baseball/softball is now done exclusively through organizations. Kids can't simply wander down to the local park and find a game of baseball/softball. I haven't seen a pickup game of baseball/softball in 15 years. In the last 40 years, I have seen two pickup games of baseball. On the other hand, I see pick up games of basketball about every day. I'm see pickup games of soccer a couple of times a month.

Third, softball/baseball are from a different era, and I'm not sure they fit well into society. Softball/baseball are supposed to be leisurely...you go to the game, you eat something, you watch the game, you talk with friends and family, and you hang out. The game really isn't set up to be an all-consuming spectator sport. (Until the advent of instant replay, neither was football...) Players essentially sit for 50% of the game and talk with their friends.

Thank you SO much for this post, sluggers!

The problem with forums of this sort, is that certain nuances that can be conveyed in verbal communication can be lost in written communication.


In retrospect, I should have been a LOT clearer in my writing, to avoid confusion.

What I intended to convey (but clearly failed) is that I first really noticed the situation when I read an article written by a "white nationalist". The idea of rich white fathers keeping their DDs from playing with the riff-raff, was HIS interpretation, not mine. Anyone offended by that probably SHOULD be offended. If anyone thought that was MY opinion, I take the blame for not being clear enough, and I extend my more sincere apologies.

What I intended to show is that reading that article really made me think about the whole club/ organization structure as far as it went for a number of sports, including softball, and how that excludes people with limited means.

That particular "white nationalist", S.S., said that the club system was NOT the best way to develop players, but it was good for those who had the time and money to participate in the club system. His opinion, not mine. I do agree that the club system excludes players of limited means, either time or $ or both.

Also, there are certain cultural reasons that keep non-white kids from playing softball in Wisconsin. How did my DD #3 get into softball? Her sister, DD #1, played softball, and dragged all her siblings into practice. DD #3 enjoyed it, and went on the rec league and TB. How did DD #1 get into softball? Her BFF was playing rec league, and asked DD #1 to join her. Why was her BFF playing rec league? BFF's mother played HS softball, and some club softball during college.

My own opinion? I would like to see, not just for softball but for ALL sports, some way to include and involve players who are either from families with limited resources, or else from families that are part of ethnic groups that do not generally play the game.

Boys' sports have sometimes done a better job of this than girls, but not always. It is quite possible for a kid, especially a boy, from limited means to be a HS star and get into D1 in sports like football, basketball, and track.

Now that sluggers has pointed out why people would be offended by my post, I completely understand it, and I apologize to anyone offended. Not for my ideas, but for my clumsy way of presenting the ideas, which made me appear to be racist.