Peel drop problem

[FrozenRope]

I started my post with a disclaimer that it may be a dumb post....lol. in the world I live in now (11 year old) a fb is a pitch thrown as fast as she physically can with little regard for spin. Her drop (wip) is a fewer mph off her fb. So I am guessing that if a pitcher isn't throwing fb's, then you need to assume that low pitch is going to drop....so swing under if. If its high..it must be a rise....swing over it. I've never had the opportunity to hit against a high level softball pitcher....so I don't know...Like I said...I'm asking more then I am stating facts.

 

[Rocketech1]

I started my post with a disclaimer that it may be a dumb post....lol. in the world I live in now (11 year old) a fb is a pitch thrown as fast as she physically can with little regard for spin. Her drop (wip) is a fewer mph off her fb. So I am guessing that if a pitcher isn't throwing fb's, then you need to assume that low pitch is going to drop....so swing under if. If its high..it must be a rise....swing over it. I've never had the opportunity to hit against a high level softball pitcher....so I don't know...Like I said...I'm asking more then I am stating facts.

I think its a good question and a question I ask myself, "fastball" what is it really? I'm starting to think it's just building the basics pitching mechanics and then you work off this foundation for all of your other pitches. Once you have the other pitches down pretty well, you really don't need to go back to the "fastball".

Many high school pitchers and lower level college pitchers can get away with throwing only a couple of different pitches including a fastball, cu, and another movement pitch and be successful but the better hitters are going to crush a "fastball" with little or no movement and I think this is the biggest reason the "experts" encourage spinning the ball as much as possible.

Question for you? You say your DD has a fastball and working on a drop ball. How are her mechanics different on the drop, you said its slower and drops more than the FB.

 

[RetiredCoach]

First off, let me assure you that when a pitcher is throwing 50+ and can drop a ball in at your knees or rise it
up to your armpits, it is quite a challenge to hit.

Technically, there isn't much difference between a peel drop and a fastball. The peel drop is released earlier with
more emphasis on spin. The fastball does spin but, quite often, doesn't have as much spin or as much of a downward
trajectory.

My daughter doesn't have a rise ball, yet, so she will throw a fastball for her high pitch. Once she does throw an
effective rise ball the fastball might be put into semi-retirement. Currently, with a good fastball, a drop, and a changeup,
she is quite effective at the 14U and junior high level.

 

[FrozenRope]

Well....as it was described to her....she's to roll over the top of the ball as shes releasing...and her finish needs to be down in front of her belly, not free and loose like her fastball. It was supposed to be a drop curve...but I just call it a drop. Its dead 12-6 spin. Shes up to around 16 rps on the rev fire.

I know NOTHING about movement pitches....so I hope that's right. Shes only working on it for about a month or so.

 

[RAZORWEASEL]

Here is the video of her pitching...I'll put up a drop ball soon. This is a fastball, but you can still see how her hand tracks the inside of the ball at the finish.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Razor
If her brush contact was a little better (forearm tighter to thigh) it would help turn the hand such that the fingers would align directly behind the ball. It's a little tough to see from the side, but her upper torso disconnecting from her lower torso (not aligned) is the primary reason she misses contact....it appears the upper torso leans toward 3rd base a bit and that takes the arm away from the thigh. The lean is ok, it's the disconnected lean that is the issue.
Also, a lot of forward lean at time of release.....would be better if she would not go past vertical prior to release.

 

[starsnuffer]

I baseball, a fastball is a pitch that is thrown harder/faster then other pitches. In baseball, fastballs move too, or they get hit hard.

In softball, a fastball is a pitch that is thrown just as hard as other pitches but does not move. They get hit hard.

If someone invented a softball fastball that was actually 5-7mph faster then their other pitches, then it would work as a reverse-offspeed pitch. That hasn't happened, because almost every pitcher throws a drop, rise, or screw as fast as or within 3mph of their fastball. It takes 3mph for a batter to recognize a change in speed, on average.

-W

 

[Doug Romrell]

Razor
If her brush contact was a little better (forearm tighter to thigh) it would help turn the hand such that the fingers would align directly behind the ball. It's a little tough to see from the side, but her upper torso disconnecting from her lower torso (not aligned) is the primary reason she misses contact....it appears the upper torso leans toward 3rd base a bit and that takes the arm away from the thigh. The lean is ok, it's the disconnected lean that is the issue.
Also, a lot of forward lean at time of release.....would be better if she would not go past vertical prior to release.

Not that anyone needs to vouch for Rick's advice, but I've been working really hard on getting "brush interference" with a couple of my pitchers, and I think things have GREATLY improved because of that focus. Granted, as I think BoardMember has mentioned, the brush interference is usually the result of proper mechanics to begin with.

 

[javasource]

Razor,

Thanks a lot for posting the vid. You seem pretty jazzed about the new PC - so understand that I'm not in anyway trying to dampen the fire... just giving you some info that I think might help your DD. As always... just my opinion...

Your DD would benefit greatly from an increased leg drive. The "C" shaped bend forward that she has throughout the pitch is a result of an early problem with this aforementioned leg drive. It's remarkably consistent throughout the entire pitch.

When a pitcher starts the lean forward, the transfer of weight from stride leg to drive leg is not a gradual rocking transfer, it's an immediate ballistic transfer. When this happens, you'll see a pitchers hips "sink" or "thrust" forward, and the result is a taller position/posture. as they start the circle (around 6ish). The pitcher should be 'tall', not bent over. Doing so, makes it much easier to reach this position at release. Here's an example... I used cat - because your description of your PC's methodology makes me think Cat might be one of their model pitchers...

See the difference?

This next vid will show you that "sink" or "thrust" and stand tall method of Cat compared to your DD. Notice your DD is just swinging her foot forward, and her drive foot just holding her body up. Then look at how Cat's leg muscles flex as she forcefully drives into the plate - which is the motion that straightens her spine...

As you can tell, I'm most concerned with your DD's lean - it would be my number one priority. As such, take a look at her stride foot plant. This is dangerous, and a possible injury in the making. She's planting at nearly 90-degrees - and is rolling that foot/ankle. If she'd plant at 45, everything in her pitch would benefit. Furthermore, I think planting with a flat foot is fine - but because of her 'leaning' issue, I might have her - for the time being - plant toe to heel. It might help firm up her ground force resistance... or what some people call 'blocking'. Take a look at this concern:

Again, I'd focus on getting her drive leg-to-shoulder 'line' as straight as possible early on. Don't read that as 90-degree posture to the ground. The lean is absolutely essential... but that thigh-shoulder line should be as close to straight as possible.

--- END PART I ---

 

[javasource]

--- Part II ---

The next thing I'd work with her on is her 'open' style mechanics. After all, they can lead to blindness... Seriously, though... it is VERY evident that she is taking to this new instruction and FORCING her hips to stay open. It's not a good blend to have a forward lean AND a disconnected torso... it's sort of setting her up for a possible injury. People like RLG go WAY overboard with this methodology, IMO. It shouldn't be a focus at all. The stride foot sets the angle of the hips, and that should be all. BUT... because this is a focus, your DD's hips and shoulders are TOTALLY disconnected. She's gonna have a bunch of issues arise from this... including a more difficult time with her control. I know you are digging these new PC's - but this stay open with the hips thing is not helping. For an example of this "disconnection", reference the hip and shoulder lines in this next vid:

Aside from the obvious posture fix and stride foot angle, one fix for 'reconnecting' the hips and shoulders would be to focus on the drive foot during the last quarter of the circle. Your DD plants at 90-degrees - and as a result - her whole side of the drive foot drags on the ground. You mentioned a knee-to-knee closing - and that's cool... but the knee-to-knee closing should also involve the INTERNAL ROTATION of the drive foot. This is marked by the shoelaces facing third at 9 o'clock and IMMEDIATELY rotating towards home by 8 (often referred to as from side of big toe, to the top of big toe). This is often a torque mechanism - and it will reconnect her hips to align to her shoulders... meaning she will close a little more (with her hips). The drive foot knee does and should come forward - but it does NOT move much, if at all, until after release (when done correctly)... so you don't have to worry about "slamming the door".

This fix, coupled with the posture fix above, would really help your DD achieve that brush interference Rick and Doug are talking about.

Again, I used Cat - cause it sounds like her mechanics are in line with your PC's style... Here's a comparison of your DD to Cat... pay close attention to Cat's I/R of the foot (really evident in her quad orientation). Then watch your daughter. This should be an obvious spot for you when comparing the two - and also a comfort for you to see a high-level pitcher doing it without "slamming the door". Here's that comparison:

Lastly, I mentioned your DD might have a heel that kicks backward. This is usually the case with most younger pitchers... but it looks like your DD is really pinching the knees. Really makes me thing that your PC shares some similarities with Rita Lynn (RLG), too. This squeeze, pinch, or 'clap' of the knees is one of her trademarks. If her heel did kick towards first, it would create excessive spacing between her thigh and throwing hand, eliminating some of the brush interference. This does happen a little, but I'm confident if you taught her to I/R her foot, this heel drift would never be an issue. Here's that one...

Lastly, she has a bunch of rotation of the ball during her wind-up. I'm not a fan of that personally, but it does appear she repositions her hand properly as she heads towards the top of the circle. I'd be really curious to see what the top of your DD's circle looks like... but that's another day....

Hope you can find some good in this post. Your DD is obviously talented.

Cheers,
~JS