Peel drop problem

[CoachFP]

Yeah, I used to think that, too. I ended up in an argument with a guy much more intelligent than me in that science stuff... like Rick did. I concede that now...

The relationship and effect that drag has on influencing the MOVEMENT of a ball is not a direct relationship (4 seam does not equal twice a 2 seam), as you suggest. You'd think a smooth ball would NOT break as much as a ball with rough surface, but this has been refuted by the old dimpled golf ball, having less drag than a smooth one.

Furthermore, think of those seems cutting with taped balls... how many pitchers really get perfect 12-6, 6-12, etc... spin? It's the rate of spin and speed of the pitch, as well as the the pressure and turbulence around a ball (the boundary layer) - that ultimately influence the pitch the most... in regards to the effect of spin... There are also many environmental and lunar effects that do their own damage, too...

I'm not saying that 4 seams can't influence more than 2 seams... but the relationship to movement is not 2:1 because of a grip - and seldom does a pitch actually utilize the 4 seams equally (softballs aren't symmetric either)... and as such, the center of pressure changes, allowing for variations in every pitch.

I may be wrong, as usual... but this is how I understand it... I'm definitely open to ideas/info on this one...

Expecting 2:1 movement with 4 vs 2 seams is unrealistic because the ball is much bigger than the seems and to suggest that wouldn't make sense. I know that Rick mentioned a Professors' belief that the number of seams doesn't matter. Professor's make mistakes all of the time. Research is refuted more often than we are led to believe. But I will offer something up. I know from personal experience that larger seams make the ball move more than flat or no seams. In my logical world it tells me that the seams have a direct correlation to how much the ball moves. It would stand to reason that having 4 seams turning would add a little more bite to the ball than just two, if bigger seams matter as well.

 

[Rick Pauly]

CoachP
Well we sorta might be in some agreement (you,me,Dr. Nathan) In talks with Dr. Nathan he indicated he was not aware of any definitive studies proving seam orientation effects ball movement.....I am going to paraphrase a part of a recent email conversation Dr. Nathan and I had regarding a recent study done on behalf of NCAA baseball:

There is no doubt that
there is reduced air drag on the flat-seam ball, just as the coaches
have told me. But they have also said there is more movement on the
flat-seam ball. That does not agree with the laboratory data, which
shows slightly more movement on the raised-seam ball. Now your question
about movement vs. seam orientation is interesting but I don't know if
there is a definitive answer yet.

In my gut I feel that if there is any miniscule advantage in seam orientation then a pitcher should try to use it.......I have just backed off of how important I thought it was. I don't get as hyped up now when a pitcher comes to me with a two seam dropball grip anymore. If it feels comfortable to them I roll with it.

Hope some day there is a "definitive" study done on this.

Expecting 2:1 movement with 4 vs 2 seams is unrealistic because the ball is much bigger than the seems and to suggest that wouldn't make sense. I know that Rick mentioned a Professors' belief that the number of seams doesn't matter. Professor's make mistakes all of the time. Research is refuted more often than we are led to believe. But I will offer something up. I know from personal experience that larger seams make the ball move more than flat or no seams. In my logical world it tells me that the seams have a direct correlation to how much the ball moves. It would stand to reason that having 4 seams turning would add a little more bite to the ball than just two, if bigger seams matter as well.

 

[Hillhouse]

I'm not a scientist so I cannot fathom how 2 seams could move more than 4 but, leaving that debate alone:

The other problem with a 2 seam pitch (rise or drop) is, the rotation on the ball is much easier for the hitter to identify. 4 seams is tight and conceals the direction of the spin much better. Assuming a team doesn't have the pitcher "picked" the next job of the hitter is to identify what pitch is being thrown as early as possible, which is done by identifying the rotation of the ball as it's released. A 2 seam pitch is a "looser" rotation than a 4 seam and is much easier to see, at least that's my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. For my pitching, I want all 4 seams to spin for both the movement and pitch concealment as much as possible.

Razor... dollars to doughnuts the cause of her spin malfunction is because of a bad position at the 12:00 spot of the arm circle. 9/10 times, bad spin is the result not getting the hand in the right position at the release (which is obvious). But, the cause of THAT problem a lot of times has to do with the hand being cupped or curled at 12:00, then the hand twists as the release instead of snaps. That's what I would look at first.

Bill

 

[javasource]

I agree with the perception of 2 vs 4. 2-seams create two noticeable lines as opposed to the 4-seam blur Bill mentions.

As far as the influence generated by seam orientation... I was just saying it's not half of a 4-seam - with specific emphasis on the axis that is typically thrown. I also forgot to mention that the seams are parabolic... they don't run in straight lines around the ball. As such, the majority of the "raised" part of the seams are never directly parallel to the axis... thus limiting their direct intended influence on spin direction. Lastly, if you position a 4-seam at a 1-7 axis, and do the same to a 2-seam, the seams "influencing" are almost equal.

Razor -

PC is a college coach. Mechanics teaching are spot on and really enforces staying tall, staying open as long as possible.

DD was used to shoulders/hips/hand facing home at release. Now shoulders/hips are at third with hand facing home.

It's getting better, just wondering if there is anything to make sure the hand stays behind the ball or is it just a matter of re-learning the finish and repetitions.

Forcing the hips to stay longer is, IMO, not the best method. It sounds like the new PC, is limiting the torque, and the new 'open' position is causing her hand to be out of place. Granted, I've nothing to go by other than your description - but I would hope that her hip/shoulder line would be closer to 45-degrees at release. If she is open to 90, as you suggest, I would also guess that her rear leg heel is kicking towards 1st, further distorting her hips, and thus her hand position... Do you have a video that you would post? ~JS

 

[RAZORWEASEL]

I agree with the perception of 2 vs 4. 2-seams create two noticeable lines as opposed to the 4-seam blur Bill mentions.

As far as the influence generated by seam orientation... I was just saying it's not half of a 4-seam - with specific emphasis on the axis that is typically thrown. I also forgot to mention that the seams are parabolic... they don't run in straight lines around the ball. As such, the majority of the "raised" part of the seams are never directly parallel to the axis... thus limiting their direct intended influence on spin direction. Lastly, if you position a 4-seam at a 1-7 axis, and do the same to a 2-seam, the seams "influencing" are almost equal.

Razor -



Forcing the hips to stay longer is, IMO, not the best method. It sounds like the new PC, is limiting the torque, and the new 'open' position is causing her hand to be out of place. Granted, I've nothing to go by other than your description - but I would hope that her hip/shoulder line would be closer to 45-degrees at release. If she is open to 90, as you suggest, I would also guess that her rear leg heel is kicking towards 1st, further distorting her hips, and thus her hand position... Do you have a video that you would post? ~JS

I think the hips/shoulder are closer to 45 degrees but where she was before was completely closed. They did a lot of footwork/posture drills to keep to correct how bad it was. Probably over emphasized staying open, but in reality it's probably closer to 45 degrees at release. Rear leg closes hard knee to knee. I'll post some video.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Cool...how this is going... I posted my video's while we were waiting for OP's. Bottom line on mine is I was trying to find a set that could be duplicated all over the country that would have a west bearing and give the wind a chance to help me collect $500 from Sluggers...on proving the rise. The chain link can be used for an authenticating scale.

I also thought the green grass would make the ball show up better than it did. I was also disappointed that the bungee I had set to DD's Knee & Letters didn't show up better too. Once I got the video :{(( I seen the blur drop from 3 balls to two. So I colored it in. Made a nice effect. Later added the video, because I couldn't resist making the ball hop up for the rise...just a joke in another thread.

I was agreeing w/ the good coach about the axis for the drop... having just picked it up. DD was demoing it, second time. It did drop off the table..... I also conceded that coach was "properly" right. I said in other post that I have been told by just about everyone I have come into contact with in FastPitch...that my tape was on wrong... 2 seams. I still have it the way I started out. I am really happy that my gut kept it the way I started. The two seams "off the table" worked good enough for what I was trying to do...

I was just complying with standard teaching... My approach was... if the batter can see it better, then they confidently stride past the point of no return, and see if they can judge a "off the table drop". The spin keeps it on the ground...It's just one pitch... works great !!! 8-10u

 

[Rick Pauly]

I read something years ago related to what Bill is suggesting.....I think it was called "flicker factor". Anyone have info on that to post?

I'm not a scientist so I cannot fathom how 2 seams could move more than 4 but, leaving that debate alone:

The other problem with a 2 seam pitch (rise or drop) is, the rotation on the ball is much easier for the hitter to identify. 4 seams is tight and conceals the direction of the spin much better. Assuming a team doesn't have the pitcher "picked" the next job of the hitter is to identify what pitch is being thrown as early as possible, which is done by identifying the rotation of the ball as it's released. A 2 seam pitch is a "looser" rotation than a 4 seam and is much easier to see, at least that's my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. For my pitching, I want all 4 seams to spin for both the movement and pitch concealment as much as possible.

Razor... dollars to doughnuts the cause of her spin malfunction is because of a bad position at the 12:00 spot of the arm circle. 9/10 times, bad spin is the result not getting the hand in the right position at the release (which is obvious). But, the cause of THAT problem a lot of times has to do with the hand being cupped or curled at 12:00, then the hand twists as the release instead of snaps. That's what I would look at first.

Bill

 

[CoachFP]

CoachP
Well we sorta might be in some agreement (you,me,Dr. Nathan) In talks with Dr. Nathan he indicated he was not aware of any definitive studies proving seam orientation effects ball movement.....I am going to paraphrase a part of a recent email conversation Dr. Nathan and I had regarding a recent study done on behalf of NCAA baseball:

There is no doubt that
there is reduced air drag on the flat-seam ball, just as the coaches
have told me. But they have also said there is more movement on the
flat-seam ball. That does not agree with the laboratory data, which
shows slightly more movement on the raised-seam ball. Now your question
about movement vs. seam orientation is interesting but I don't know if
there is a definitive answer yet.

In my gut I feel that if there is any miniscule advantage in seam orientation then a pitcher should try to use it.......I have just backed off of how important I thought it was. I don't get as hyped up now when a pitcher comes to me with a two seam dropball grip anymore. If it feels comfortable to them I roll with it.

Hope some day there is a "definitive" study done on this.

Rick, one other point that might be made. When the ball is spinning tightly 12-6 or 6-12 it is slightly harder to recognize the pitch. When only two seams are moving you get to pick up the orientation of the ball a little better. Also if you have both the rise and the drop spinning tightly they require quicker recognition to tell them apart.

 

[FrozenRope]

This may be a dumb post..but I'm going to put it out there anyway.....Isn't it much easier to distinguish the difference between a rise and a drop by seeing the trajectory? I also often wonder why folks say that there is no use for a FB beyond high school and you only need a rise, a drop, and a change. Doesn't that make it pretty easy to pick pitches? Its a heck of a lot easier to see where the ball is headed (high or low) than it is to try and decipher the spin...no?

 

[Rocketech1]

This may be a dumb post..but I'm going to put it out there anyway.....Isn't it much easier to distinguish the difference between a rise and a drop by seeing the trajectory? I also often wonder why folks say that there is no use for a FB beyond high school and you only need a rise, a drop, and a change. Doesn't that make it pretty easy to pick pitches? Its a heck of a lot easier to see where the ball is headed (high or low) than it is to try and decipher the spin...no?

What do you consider a "fastball"? The reason I ask is that a peel drop is a type of 4-seam fastball, is it not? A riseball is a basically a fastball that has backspin (or in reality some sidespin). I would stay away from fastballs that have bullet spin or little movement (less RPS) since they will be the easiest to hit because they are not changing planes (moving up or down or down and up) nor are they moving much left or right.